SantaMonica
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Posts posted by SantaMonica
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"Jfdelacruz" on the RP site:
"Johnt" on the UR site:
"Jski711" on the RS site:
"Keyaam" on the MASA site:
"Labman" on the MD site:
"Minzuk" on the UR site:
"Mrobo770131" on the UR site:
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"Hefner413" on the SWF site:
"Isaac" on the UK RF site:
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"Doenuttz" on the MFK site:
"Dohn" on the MASA site:
"Tapz" on the RP site:
"Freetareef" on the RF site:
"Glaring Toast" on the MFT site:
"Goodisor" on the MASA site:
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"Cleous" on the FG site:
"Coopattack" on the FG site:
"Cvermeulen" on the MFK site:
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Here are some other builds to give you more ideas:
"Nickq" on the UR site:
"Duijver" on the MFT site:
"Big Tanner" on the RS site:
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Well I thought more folks would want to be a scrubber builder, but so far only one person signed up to be in the directory that Worley set up:
http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewto...hp?f=9&t=25
But at least those who want scrubbers (but don't have the time or ability to build one) can now have it done for them.
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11/10: will see if the algae grows thick now...it is filling in real good. Here are some shots of some super clear water...It has always been decent, but since the algae has been disappearing from in the pond, it is getting noticeably crystal like...the fish, at the same temp seem to be more active as well...
11/11: the bottom [originally] looked like the dark green you see here, but all the way across, no clean areas at all. You can see the algae is receding in the pattern of the current...
11/12: 28 days from bare screen; indirect sun for all of the daylight hours, and 4 solid direct sun hours...
It's a relatively inexpensive project for the results you can produce. If you are anything like me, no matter what others are getting, I had to see for myself, first hand. I have less than 20.00 invested, but I use the Sun and a gravity return. The concept is basic, add your twist to it and see what you come up with...it just might be better than the others.
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11/4: here ya go, 20 days out. funny thing is it's been overcast and it rained a couple of days...
11/6: 21 days out, and now it is filling in with dark slimey looking stuff. And here is side view of the frame...
11/9: 25 days out... The algae [in the pond] is receding. 3 days ago [the pond] was totally covered. Like Magic it is disappearing. And this pond is in direct sunlight too...
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After rubbing what green Algae I could scrape up, into the mesh like a caveman, the water is now running full width, and it looks slimey(?) shiney. [Flow is] 400-450 I would have to estimate, possibly more. I used a table saw with a carbide tipped blade for the slot and cross-cuts...Make [the pipe] longer than you need so you have something to hang onto while you are sawing the slot. The cross cuts are 1" apart and the blade height was set at 1/4" for the 3/4" - sch 20 PVC pipe.
I am chalking the ground to see if there is better exposure time about 80-90 degrees counter clockwise.
10/22: Woooot! OK we have what looks like the start of something very interesting. Here's the thing... it's down at the bottom where it gets the least amount of direct sunlight...??
The canvas was seeded with what I could, and then rinsed thoroughly. That's something you said in the thread. There was no visable green on that canvas [when started].
10/26: 10 days out, no foil, no mirriors, just good ol sunlight. I did move the tub 45 degrees counter clockwise to pick up more direct sun...
There are 4 medium KOI in there, and it's cycled. Just recently, 2-3 days ago? Algae took off in the pond almost over night.
10/30: day 15, pure solar power. this is what she looks like now...
I didn't see anything for a week, and then it started as a little bloom on just one square. After seeing where the growth pattern is, I would have used some 10 grit carbide paper on the plastic...the rougher the surface the easier the initial the spores can attach. The top where the plastic canvas goes into the spraybar, got scratched the most from fitting and re-fitting the screen...it has thick green algae on it and it is shaded alot of the time. So in summary, go as rough as possible on the prep...I say. See the high spots of the grid? I wish I would have sanded the crap out of it with bigger grit. I'm still getting good flow across the canvas anyhow.
11/1: same position 17 days from virgin screen. Seems the last 48 hours has been a bit overcast and the screen looks fuller...anybody else think so?...
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This is a big Success Of The Day: "zennzzo" on the MFK site has the first freshwater scrubber success story of any thread, and he did it with a solar powered scrubber! Has has an outdoor inflatable pond that went from this:
To this...
... and it's still improving. He's in Southern California, and here are the pertinent parts of his build:
10/10: Subscribed for sure. I'm going to try this oustside in the sunlight...I would think there is enough light?
10/12: I am building one right now with plexi sheet. Started with a 1/8th sheet of clear plexi. 32" x 15" = 480 sq. inches. (good for a 650gal huh?) I sanded the plexi sheet with 40 grit in a cross-hatch pattern. Did the frame with 3/4" PVC pipe and couplings. I cut the slots with a table saw for the water to flow and used zip ties to keep it in place. A 1/2" hose barb for the water inlet on a "T". I'm building the stand so it will set in a small rubbermaid tote. I'll run a submersible pump with prefilter via hose to the 1/2" hose barb, then I will plumb an overflow, 1" gravity fed, a few inches off the bottom of the tote, back to the pond. These are pics of what I have so far...
10/13: [Realized he needed screen and not plexi] Plastic Needlepoint canvas...piece of cake, WalMart carries that. Does the holes per inch matter?, because the thicker it is, the larger the holes are. [Answer: Not really]
10/15: [Will be in] direct sunlight aprox 7 hrs. AM sun on one side and PM sun on the other... southern exposure.
10/16: "sunshine on my scrub-ber, makes me hap-py" **
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Ok here is a directory template; If you would like to be listed as a scrubber builder, copy and paste the below info into a PM to me (do not post it here on the thread). I'll compile it from there...
Location (fill in)
Country:
State:
City:
Material that the builder has worked with (delete the rest)
PVC
Plastic
Acrylic
Glass
Components that the builder has built (delete the rest)
Pipe
Screen
Frame for floppy screens
Bucket for screen
Box for screen
Sumps/Fuges with Scrubbers
HOB Scrubbers
HOT Scrubbers
LED Scrubbers
Misc (fill in)
Turn-around-time:
Price range:
Experience (number of scrubbers built):
Guarantees (if any):
Customer help after the sale:
References:
Misc items available (pump, timer, fan, unions, clips, etc):
Example drawings available:
How large/small can builder handle:
Contact (fill in)
Phone:
Email:
Personal or Business Website:
Forum Username:
Forum Website:
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Here's an idea: How about a directory of scrubber builders, with the following info on each builder:
Location:
City
State
Country
Material that the builder knows how to use:
PVC
Plastic
Acrylic
Glass
Components that the builder knows how to build:
Pipe
Screen
Frame for floppy screens
Bucket for screen
Box for screen
Sumps/Fuges with Scrubbers
HOB Scrubbers
HOT Scrubbers
LED Scrubbers
Misc:
Turn-around-time
Price range
Experience (number of scrubbers built)
Guarantees (if any)
Customer help after the sale
References
Misc items available (pump, timer, fan, unions, clips, etc)
Example drawings available?
How large/small can builder handle?
One problem with posting a directory is that it will need constant updating and re-posting. Would there be a better way to do it than posting in a thread? I could host it on my site where I put all the pics, or I could put it on the algae scrubber site. But ideal would be being able to post it here, and be able to edit it here.
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Anyone know anyone who could build some acrylic scrubbers? People have been asking me to build them, but I don't want to.
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Screen on both sides, correct? Can you show both?
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Result Of The Day:
"garypower" on the UR site: "i was on one of the first couple of pages on this thread and decided like others to give it a go! my screen is now 2 months on, and its there as predicted, full of algea turf deep red brown colour and having to start using a blade to make space! my tank parems have gone to non-detectable po4 and zero nitrates! the tank in appearance looks like polished water yet i dont run carbon! my skimmer is now only running one hour every four hours with my ozone unit on a timer, i have a much better growth rate with my corals, there is less build up of algea on the glass i only use a magfloat once a week to clear very faint dusting of algea."
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Another reefer with a good camera offered to take pics and vids of my display, but until we can arrange for that, here are some sump shots with my old 2meg camera:
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Today's build of the day is from "Bob the (reef)builder" on the MASA site, the same fellow who made the outdoor scrubber. He now is the first one to build the acrylic Santa Monica version for his own tank. Here is the original layout I posted a while back:
(It's currently the only filter of any kind on my tank.)
Here is Bob's version of the same thing; It's 4 feet long, using 2 T5's on each side:
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Call For Builders/Sellers
Here's a note to anyone who would like to start building and selling scrubbers. I think there are plenty of people who would like to buy one, but they don't have the time or ability to build them (there are several of these on every thread I'm on, who have asked me to build one for them), or they don't even know scrubbers exist but could use one. And currently there's no place to buy scrubbers. So it's a good time for you to put some buckets, acrylics, or sump screens together and offer them for sale, starting out by advertising on this forum.
I recommend that you start out selling buckets or sump screens, instead of acrylic units. The price of an acrylic unit is going to be much higher, and most beginners are not going to jump in and pay the extra money for one. Keep in mind that most folks buy small less-costly tanks first, and move up from there. That makes them feel safer, since they have less to lose when starting. Once they become comfortable with their small tanks, they get bigger ones for more money. This is how you shoud approach scrubber sales; small and cheap first, and then go from there if they are happy.
Since the bucket version is not very beautiful, it will just be a product for people who have nuisance algae problems in their tanks and they just want to try anything to get the algae out. They might even view the buckets as temporary; they can use it until the algae is gone, then put it in the closet or lend it to a friend.
The bucket version is certainly a good version for you to start with, especially by mail order, since it's self-contained and does not need elaborate installation at the customer's house (they just drop the pump in the tank/sump, and go.) And very important: The bucket can be used as its own shipping container, with it's own lid. And you almost certainly would want to include a pump with it (with an adjustable flow), so there would be no guessing on the customer's part as to what pump they should get. Something like a Hydor L40 Pump (740 gph), with a built-in flow adjust.
Adjustable flow is important, because you don't know how high up (head) the pump will have to push when the customer starts using it. Or, they may have a long run from the bucket to the tank. Also, the pump may get weaker (or the pipe slot may get clogged) with time, so being able to turn it up is a plus.
If you decide to sell locally, and install the scrubbers yourself, then you can also consider selling in-sump or above-sump screens. Since these are very custom installations, you can't expect a customer to figure it out for themselves. The light placement and water flow need to be setup by someone who's done it before.
As for a wavetimer, I'd recommend not putting one in. It's not proven yet just how effective it might be. What is proven is that it adds power cords and complexity, and decisions about what time to set it to (customers don't like making decisions.) Plus, wavemaker timers are not cheap; the one I used cost $50. That's a large portion of the total cost of a scrubber.
Also, I'd hold off on offering or even mentioning a fan. There is not much room on a bucket to easily clip on a fan, and it's just extra noise; it might even be viewed as a danger for families with kids. Remember, a fan is also not proven how effective it might help the scrubbing process. Plus, a fan will really chill the water; some reefkeepers want this, but some beginners will not. Only mention a fan if they are having heat issues with their tank, or if they currently use a chiller. Since fans are so cheap and easy to get, they can always buy and use one later.
Although you may have built your first scrubber with parts you already had, if you are going to be building several of these to sell, you'll be needing to buy everything new. A basic bucket-build includes the bucket, waterfall pipe, vinyl tubing, pump, screen, clips to hold the pipe to the bucket, lights, light timer (set to 18 hours ON), and the drain for the bucket. I'd probably include about as much vinyl tubing as you can fit into the bucket for shipping. (Customers are much happier when they don't have to make an unplanned trip to the store for tubing.)
My first tally came up to about $60 for the parts; then you need to add the pump. The one linked above is $80, for a total of $140. So you could sell the whole thing for $199, which would be fair for the amount of work you put in to make it (mostly, cutting the slot). Just print up an instruction sheet for the customer to read, and you are done! Now I'm sure if you searched around, or bought in bulk, you could cut the cost in half. But as far as the customer's cost is concerned, I think something like $199 is a good deal to wipe out algae in their tanks. But you can set your own price.
So making the scrubbers is easy enough. Where do you market and sell them? The obvious place to start is by letting people on the forums know you have them, starting with forums that have current scrubber threads like this one. Most forums also have a buy/sell section, which is a good place. The next step might be a banner ad on these forums, and then maybe you could buy a whole sponsor-forum. Next I'd target the LFS: Let them use a bucket for one of their problem tanks (of proper size) to prove the bucket works, then work out a deal whereby he buys from you and resells, or he holds them in consignment and gives you the money after he sells them. You set the price, of course.
You could also do a "loan-to-buy" offer, where you let a customer use a demonstration bucket of yours for free for maybe 2 weeks, and when you go to pick it up (when their N and P are reduced), they'll want to buy a new one from you in order to keep their N and P from going back up.
Ebay might be an option later on, when people know what these things are. Also you could always do a litte site of your own. And don't forget Craigslist. But people have to be already looking for scrubbers for these online places to work, unless you advertise it as a "mega powerful algae remover"
Then there are the traditional magazines that you could advertise in. They get expensive fast, but the reach a lot of people. You'll probably want to get some sales going with the above efforts first.Basically, you are trying to reach beginners. The types with FO, FOWLR, or softie/LPS reefs, who are on their first or second tank, are your best customers. They spend money (sometimes lots of) on something if it makes their tank the way they want it, especially if it does so without them having to expend any effort. 9 out of 10 people who walk into a LFS are this type of person. So getting familiar with your LFS(s) will be very important.
Guarantees: Although most everyone on these forums that has set up a scrubber properly has seen great results (and possibly even eliminated all their nuisance algae) within 8 weeks, you can't make a guarantee of the same to a customer, because you have no control over how they will use it. So by saying something like the scrubber "usually" clears out algae within 8 weeks, you will be covered in case they mis-use it. Now, if you are hired to build and install it yourself, and maybe even to do weekly cleanings of it, you might be able to promise more.
Size: Most customers will be beginners, using FW or SW fish setups under 100 gallons. For these folks, a standard 5 gallon bucket with 144 square inches of screen should be fine. If you find that they have a very heavily stocked FO tank, or a tank of 150+ gallons, you may recommend to them that they get two buckets (hooked up in series or parallel). Or at least to start with one, and then add another later if they like the results. But building a "bigger" bucket is not a good idea for now. Keep everything to one size.
Support: Once a customer has purchased from you, you'll want to remain in contact with them afterwards in case they have questions. Most of them will have their questions immediately after purchasing, which is when they are trying to get it hooked up and working. After that, you probably will never hear from them again, except for a few that think that it's your fault that their tank is dying from some bad-husbandry issue of theirs. This is when you rely on your no-refunds policy.
Installation: Many customers are only interested in the final look of their tank; they don't want anything to do with understanding how it works or how to install anything. For these folks, you offer (local) installation of the scrubber for an additional cost. If all you have to do is put the pump in their sump, set the bucket up, and run the drain line back to the sump, you might charge $150 service charge to go to their location and do it. That would include driving, setting up the bucket, taking N and P measurements, answering their questions, watching the setup for problems/leaks, showing them how to clean weekly and scrape perodically, etc. If you are installing a custom in-sump or above-sump design, maybe an extra $250 would cover the extra time.
Refunds: This will be the toughest area for you to deal with. Basically, you should guarantee that everything will ship to the customer without breaking (especially the lights) and that it will be in working condition. Other than that, once they start using it, there are no refunds. Let them know this upfront, in your invoice. And there are certainly no refunds if they are "not happy" with the nitrate, phosphate, or nuisance algae issues. Basically you just want to guarantee that the pump and lights work, since they are the only mechanical parts.
Tie-ins With Maintenance: Many guys, maybe you, are currently servicing tanks. So of course new accounts are always being sought to service. One thing you can do is to offer a free scrubber to a customer that purchases maintenance from you. So if you are a maintenance guy, you can use the scrubber to get new business. If you are not a maintenance guy, you can offer an actual maintenance guy a deal if he includes your scrubber in with his new clients.
Business cards: These are a must. Go online an set up an account with a printer who lets you design business cards from their site. BusinessCards.com is one (though I have not used them). You'll be making changes to your cards, so it good to have an account that you can go and make changes and make new prints. Here is an example of what your card could look like:
Pre-grown screens: While the pre-grown screens from Inland Aquatics really helps speed up results by weeks, I would not recommend including one in your scrubbers for customers. It's too much reliance on a third party for delivery, plus it introduces delays. Besides, everyone has been able to get desired nutrient removal from their tanks within eight weeks by starting with a blank screen. So why introduce a possible delay/problem. I would only consider a pre-grown screen if you were hired as a full-service person to fix nutrient problems on a large system, and they needed big results in a hurry, and you had complete control over everything.
Name: Refer to a scrubber as an "algae filter", not a scrubber. To a beginner, a "scrubber" is a scrub pad they clean the glass with. By referring to scrubbers as "algae filters" you do two positive things. First, you make it very clear to the customer what it does: It filters algae, which is exactly why they are talking to you in the first place. Second, if they ever become more involved in reefs, then they will come to appreciate that "algae filter" really means that the algae on the screen is doing the filtering. So the name really has two meanings.
LFS Referrals: Maintenance guys do this all the time. First you convince the LFS that the scrubber works by loaning him a bucket for a problem tank of appropriate size. After he's conviced, give him your business card so he can refer you customers. Hey may ask you for a referral fee, so you'll have to negotiate with him how much. I'd say $10 per person that calls you is fair, whether or not they buy.
Details: When explaing a bucket to a potential customer, you have to keep it simple. All they care about is removing the ugly green stuff from their rocks and glass. Some of these folks don't even know which fish are SW and which are FW. So talk about the bucket in terms of doing what they want: Removing the algae from their tanks. Don't even mention nitrate or phosphate unless they ask. Make it easy to understand, i.e., "All the algae filter does is make the algae grow on the screen instead of in your tank; then you just clean it away!" That's all they really need or want to know. If they get into wanting detailed explanations and case histories, they they are not going to be buying your scrubber. But they will talk forever. In sales, these people are called "talkers", and will waste most of your time, and buy the least amounts of your product. The people who do buy most of your product will be the ones who ask the least questions and then buy the quickest. Again, all they care about is: Will it get the green off the rocks and glass? How often does it need to be cleaned?, What is the cost?, and Is there an algae guarantee?. All are easy answers (the last one being "no").
Anyways, hope to see some of you becoming mini scrubber manufacturers!
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Oceanus: Can you build an LED panel for a nano?
Andy: Who are you asking?
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Results Of The Day:
"pong" on the RP site: "Still havent cleaned my screen... and no water change... no problems! im just killing the pods by dosing kalk and all my top-off on the screen (since early october, no cleaning of the screen, last water change... august? september?)
"jski711" on the RS site: "the last phosphate test I had done at the lfs it was undetectable on the hanna phosphate photometer, and I only have the one side of my screen lit for now!!!"
"col" on the UR site: "Todays tests are P = 0.03, N = 5. the algae looks the same, green slime. Skimmer is still running 24/7, feeding 2-3 times a day for fat fish. Algae on the rocks is subsiding, and water conditions have never been better."
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Reminder Of The Day:
If you are home when a power outage occurs, then just like you would manually try to oxygenate your tank, you would also take the screen out and set it in some water (even tap water in the sink.) Problem solved, no damage. It can sit there for two days with no ill effects. You could even put it in a shallow pan of water outside in the sun, where it will probaby grow
If you are not home, however, it becomes a question of which you lose first, your screen or your whole display. Long term (days) you are going to lose both, so we'll look at short term (hours). Somewhere in-between is the question: If you are not home when the power goes out for 2, 3, 4, 5 hours, etc., then how much of your screen will you lose, and how much of the nutrients will be "released" back into the water?
Well, most screens are designed to be up and out-of-contact with the water, so there will be zero "release" of nutrients during the power-outage. And floating screens that stay in contact with the water will not die or release nutrients at all in a short-term outage, because they stay wet. So immediate release of nutirents is not a factor in any situation.
The real question is long term loss of filtering, i.e., how much of the screen will die off during the outage. When you get back home, the screen has been drying for a few hours, but is still moist. What you do is put it in your sink with water and give the dead parts a chance to fall off. Not sure of how much time is needed, but just do a regular cleaning of the screen every few hours until it seems that most of the dead stuff is removed. Doing this in the sink will prevent any nutrients from getting back into the tank. You then put the screen back into operation, and it's no different than if you just did a regular cleaning. And this is the worst case.
I myself unplugged the wrong plug once and left the screen 6 hours with no flow. The fan was still on, but the lights were off at the time. It was all still moist, yet a bit hardened. I did not think at the time to remove the outer layers of dead stuff, so I just put it back into operation right way. What happened was the next day or two there was a very slight increase in N from zero (clear Salifert) to a very slight pink; probably got up to about .5 or 1. P did not ever increase, however. And this was without properly removing the dead stuff. So overall, I don't think power outages are really that eventfull for scrubbers.
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You have about a 75 U.S. gal, so you only need 75 square inches (lit both sides), or 150 square inches (lit one side). Your is lit one side, so each of your screens needs to be 75 square inches. 10 X 8 would be good. But 20 X 24 is WAY too big, especially for just 2 bulbs. Each bulb can only cover 3 or 4 inches. I have 2 bulbs for just 5 inches. For a 20" width, you'd need at least 5 bulbs. Try down sizing the screen, and get some smaller bulbs... 12" is good. Make sure they are T5HO, and 6500K should be good. After you know your screen width, multiply by 35 to get your gph.
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Text Version: Nutrients, part 4
Our Tanks: High Inorganic Nutrients, Low Organic Nutrients.
The Ocean: Low Inorganic Nutrients, High Organic Nutrients.
Previous Versions:
http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Nutrients1.jpg
http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Nutrients2.jpg
http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Nutrients3.jpg
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Post the specs of your tank/setup/livestock, and I'll see what scrubber config/process I can recommend to start with.
Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!
in General Reefkeeping_
Posted
"Obet_carlos" on the RP site:
"Pneumaticbetta" on the RS site:
"Rayjneal" on the SWF site:
"Tenpaullon" on the RP site: