Suggestions & Advises On New 4ft Tank

[jc85]

Hi All,

I'm currently planning to convert my existing FW tank to marine tank. The dimension of the tank is 51" x 21" x 18 " (LxHxW). Oh ya, did I mentioned that I had been reading up (still reading tot).

My Initiate plan is to start off with FOWLR then proceed to Reef/Coral once I'm comfortable and knowledgable on this hobby. Thus, mean time below are some questions I hope you guys can help out.

Q1) As I'm converting from my FW tank, I'm not able to have internal overflow for the sump. Heard that there is an addon overflow device available. Any comments on it?

Q2) For my tank, how big should the sump be if i intend to get one?

Q3) DSB and LR will definitely be for biological filter. Do I need to get LS for the DSB during the cycling process?

Q4) What other filter is recommended beside sump? Read that wet/dry is no good for reef (future plan). Should I get Cannister or hang-on type?

Q5) On the skimmer? For a 4ft tank, what type or size of the skimmer is needed? Skimmer to be added after the cycling or during cycling?

Q6) Do you guys use S'pore tab water or must go through RO (seems expensive)? ANy other options?

Hope I did not asked un-neccessary questions here. Tried to find the answer from my readings but just doesn't seem to find them.

[Cookiemunster]

Hi All,

I'm currently planning to convert my existing FW tank to marine tank. The dimension of the tank is 51" x 21" x 18 " (LxHxW). Oh ya, did I mentioned that I had been reading up (still reading tot).

My Initiate plan is to start off with FOWLR then proceed to Reef/Coral once I'm comfortable and knowledgable on this hobby. Thus, mean time below are some questions I hope you guys can help out.

Q1) As I'm converting from my FW tank, I'm not able to have internal overflow for the sump. Heard that there is an addon overflow device available. Any comments on it?

Q2) For my tank, how big should the sump be if i intend to get one?

Q3) DSB and LR will definitely be for biological filter. Do I need to get LS for the DSB during the cycling process?

Q4) What other filter is recommended beside sump? Read that wet/dry is no good for reef (future plan). Should I get Cannister or hang-on type?

Q5) On the skimmer? For a 4ft tank, what type or size of the skimmer is needed? Skimmer to be added after the cycling or during cycling?

Q6) Do you guys use S'pore tab water or must go through RO (seems expensive)? ANy other options?

Hope I did not asked un-neccessary questions here. Tried to find the answer from my readings but just doesn't seem to find them.

Hi Welcome to the reef hobby,

to answer your questions.....

Your tank size is good for a beginner tank. Beginners should always go for as big as possible so more room (water) for mistakes and tolerance.

However, considering your tank was FW, please check and ensure your tank glass thickness is at least 10mm. 12mm and higher is better. This is because salt water, sand and live rocks corals can increase the weight of the tank much much more than FW. And of course the stand it is on....wrought iron will rust in a week. Make sure your stand is strong enough. A 4ft tank fully stocked can weigh up to 800kg.

1)Ian is selling an overflow device he made. Can check with him

2)Get as big a sump as possible (whether it can fit below your tank). You will then have more room for return pumps, skimmers etc

3)There is no need for live sand but you will need live rocks.

4)A mechanical filter (cotton/sponge) would be good to remove larger ditritus. You can make that in your sump, just a compartment where the overflow comes down into first.

5)Skimmer is the most important item in your tank next to live rocks and lights. Get the best you can ever afford. Go for H&S, EuroReef, AquaC or Schuran. All these are available from SL, PR, Eaquanature respectively.

6)If you are rich and got money to spare, RO would be best. But tap water will do just as well. Anyway ML is selling a damn good prefilter for $290 plus. I just use tap water, dun even bother with antichlorine. However my top up fresh water I use antichlorine (seachem prime).

7) You forgot about point 7. Which is lighting. Get the most powerful lights you can afford too. brightness is from lowest to highest.....FL, PL, T5, MH. For corals, its best to get as bright as possible. Fishes however can do with just PL.

8) You also forgot about point 8. Which is cooling. If using MH, best is to get a chiller. Water temp for corals should be optimum around 25 degrees plus minus 2 degrees. If not using MH, just use fans to blow across the water. However evaporation rate would be high. Then a auto top up device for fresh water can be gotten from yours truly too.

Cheers

[jc85]

Hi Cookie,

Thanks for your reply.

I read that addon onverflow tend to have problem flooding (something I'll nvr wan to happen as my stand is cabinet). Actually, I do not intend to have a sump initially since I'm still new to marine. What will you think?

I had check the thickness of the glas. Is 8mm sufficient? Need at least 10mm? I though 8mm should be enough?

Wil having LS speed up the cycling process?

If I do not use sump, what will be the next best option? Hang on filter? Canister? Based on the all expert experience here.

Its nice to know that RO is not a must. The ting sure cause alot. Some $$ saved.

I sure did not forget the pts 7 & 8. Intend to use normal lights 1st till I start having coral. As for chilling, I try to DIY some fans. Hope my experience in assembling PC come into gd use. Anyone got sample that can share?

[Kalib]

Hi Cookie,

Thanks for your reply.

I read that addon onverflow tend to have problem flooding (something I'll nvr wan to happen as my stand is cabinet). Actually, I do not intend to have a sump initially since I'm still new to marine. What will you think?

I had check the thickness of the glas. Is 8mm sufficient? Need at least 10mm? I though 8mm should be enough?

Wil having LS speed up the cycling process?

If I do not use sump, what will be the next best option? Hang on filter? Canister? Based on the all expert experience here.

Its nice to know that RO is not a must. The ting sure cause alot. Some $$ saved.

I sure did not forget the pts 7 & 8. Intend to use normal lights 1st till I start having coral. As for chilling, I try to DIY some fans. Hope my experience in assembling PC come into gd use. Anyone got sample that can share?

From the advises i read here 8mm is not that safe. Better to get thicker like 10mm or 12mm.

No don't use LS for cycling. It WON'T speed up the cycling process, moreover the LS is likely to die or suffer badly in the process. Use the LR + Market prawn technique.

From the size of your tank, i think the next best option would be canister but canister needs frequent cleaning.So i won't really advise as it'll also produce alot of nitrates eventually.

You can adopt natural means to filter the water by having lots of LR and a DSB. Once the DSB kicks in, it helps to get rid of nitrates. The LR and the higher levels of the sandbed would contain bacteria to handle the ammonia and nitrite.

[jc85]

Thks for your advise.

I read that the thickness of a tank is based on the height and lenght. If i have a full base support, will it improve the safety factor? As my tank is for FW tank, there's 2inch wide glass brace from front to back on the top of the glass, will this improve teh safety factor? Read froim about.com there this may help.

Alternatively, what should I avoid in order to minimise the risk?

Thanks

[Cookiemunster]

Thks for your advise.

I read that the thickness of a tank is based on the height and lenght. If i have a full base support, will it improve the safety factor? As my tank is for FW tank, there's 2inch wide glass brace from front to back on the top of the glass, will this improve teh safety factor? Read froim about.com there this may help.

Alternatively, what should I avoid in order to minimise the risk?

Thanks

Hi Kalib is right. I really do not recommend 8mm for bigger than 3ft tank. Its just too risky.

Even with 12mm for 4ft marine tank, the normal practice is to have eurobracing. ie the strip of glass along the sides front to back.

You have to understand its not just about cracking the glass. Its about how much holding strength the silicon glue will have. Imagine gluing a coin face to face compared with side to side and you get the idea.

That is why 12mm is preferred as it has bigger surface area along the sides for better grip. Even then, eurobracing is a must for top and bottom.

But of course even without all this its still possible. Its all about how much peace of mind you want and how much risks you want to take.

Regarding cycling, its simple but you have to read up. Its more complicated than just add LR and stuff. You need to know why you should be doing what you do. It makes the hobby much more satisfying and prevents anyone from conning you or telling you some ###### and bull story.

As for lights, I strongly recommend you go for at least PLs. For 4 ft, you need 4x38W or 2x56. Bright lights add to the beauty of a tank. Trust me, go compare a tank lit by FL and a tank brightly lit by MH and you will see the difference in visual appearance. (not even talking about benefits yet).

If you are on a tight budget, you can DIY your own PL lights. Eballast and light tubes can be purchased at a good price from a reefer here, Orgasbt.

Also when you go into lighting, marine tanks need 6500kelvin lights and above. Most use 10000k. I assume you know whats all these numbers about. If not then once again, you need to read up and know why.

Marine hobby requires alot of reading and knowledge. But its very satisfying once you know what you are doing.

Cheers

[Ian]

jc85 your right, overflow box made by *** has know to give a lot of problems as it runs on a pump and the design has tendency of breaking the siphon. The Life reef, I~Box, Americal overflow boxes has no problems at all as the designs are very reliable. I had mine running for over 8 months with not a single siphon water breakage at all. I can guarantee it.

[jc85]

Hi Ian,

Thks for your info on the overflow box. Initially, I had dumped the idea of using a sump for my tank. However, I actually gave the sump more thought after looking at the diagrams you have on your website. Still thinking if its feasible for my setup.

Hi Cookie & Kalib,

As I have been running my 4ft tank with FW for almost 3yrs and it haven't been a problem to me, thought I'll try out marine. Is there a difference in requirement for Saltwater in terms of tank quality?

I did the calculation on the tank safety factor and it seems like I will be able to get 2.92 by reducing the height of my tank to 18". Guess I have to limit the amount of water I put in the tank.

I do agree that this hobby involves alot of reading and frankly speaking, I seems to enjoy reading/researching on this hobby. (FYI, I do not do alot of free time reading b4 this. hee)

On the LS, read from somewhere that it can speed up the cycling process. Guess, it is not true. Luckily, I confirmed on this. Most likely, I will be using the LR and market prawn methods.

Cheers

[Crab]

No don't use LS for cycling. It WON'T speed up the cycling process, moreover the LS is likely to die or suffer badly in the process. Use the LR + Market prawn technique.

Can you elaborate on this? I supposed LS+Market prawn technic is as good

[Cookiemunster]

Hi Ian,

Thks for your info on the overflow box. Initially, I had dumped the idea of using a sump for my tank. However, I actually gave the sump more thought after looking at the diagrams you have on your website. Still thinking if its feasible for my setup.

Hi Cookie & Kalib,

As I have been running my 4ft tank with FW for almost 3yrs and it haven't been a problem to me, thought I'll try out marine. Is there a difference in requirement for Saltwater in terms of tank quality?

I did the calculation on the tank safety factor and it seems like I will be able to get 2.92 by reducing the height of my tank to 18". Guess I have to limit the amount of water I put in the tank.

I do agree that this hobby involves alot of reading and frankly speaking, I seems to enjoy reading/researching on this hobby. (FYI, I do not do alot of free time reading b4 this. hee)

On the LS, read from somewhere that it can speed up the cycling process. Guess, it is not true. Luckily, I confirmed on this. Most likely, I will be using the LR and market prawn methods.

Cheers

I think Ian's overflow box is the best in the market as alot of reefers have bought it and so far none has complained.

Regarding the cycling with LS...ie fishes, yes its faster but you should not do it as its not ethical to sacrifice a fish to do this. And furthermore most likely you will get a cheap damsel to do this which just means if he survives the cycling, you're stuck with a stupid damsel bully in your tank.

Cycling with fishes or LS is totally unnecessary. Its best to use live rocks which will decay in the tank and provide enough dead material to start the cycling process. Its not even necessary to use dead prawn meat. The live rocks you should use is about at least 40kg for a 4ft tank.

Dun cycle with dead rocks cos it will not start any significant cycling due to not enough organisms rotting on it....ie too little die offs and no beneficial hitchhikers like brittle stars, pods, algae etc.

You will need to get test kits (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) to know when the cycling starts and stops.

[jc85]

Regarding the cycling with LS...ie fishes, yes its faster but you should not do it as its not ethical to sacrifice a fish to do this. And furthermore most likely you will get a cheap damsel to do this which just means if he survives the cycling, you're stuck with a stupid damsel bully in your tank.

Cycling with fishes or LS is totally unnecessary. Its best to use live rocks which will decay in the tank and provide enough dead material to start the cycling process. Its not even necessary to use dead prawn meat. The live rocks you should use is about at least 40kg for a 4ft tank.

Oops. I think there's a little misunderstanding. My LS = Live Sand not Live Stock.

Using fishes to cycle is nvr part of my plan.

[sduu]

As I have been running my 4ft tank with FW for almost 3yrs and it haven't been a problem to me, thought I'll try out marine. Is there a difference in requirement for Saltwater in terms of tank quality?

hi jc85, just wondering for the past 3yrs , hav u ever administrate any copper or medical treatment on your FW tank? If yes, your tank could be tainted with copper residual. could be toxic to certain marine species.

Advise to start will a fresh new tank.

[Crab]

Can you elaborate on this? I supposed LS+Market prawn technic is as good

To clarify, my LS=Live sand. Even dead sand should do a good cycling job.

[jc85]

hi jc85, just wondering for the past 3yrs , hav u ever administrate any copper or medical treatment on your FW tank? If yes, your tank could be tainted with copper residual. could be toxic to certain marine species.

Hi Sduu,

I nvr measure or test it for copper. Which will be the best kit to test it? If there's copper residue, can I neutralise it?

[jc85]

Seems like most/all invertebrates have almost zero tolerance to copper. Correct me if I'm wrong, most marine should be able to tolerate copper up till 0.15-0.25ppm?

[sduu]

I nvr measure or test it for copper. Which will be the best kit to test it? If there's copper residue, can I neutralise it?

hi, u can look for Seachem or Salifert brand copper test kits at the LFS. But how accurate and reliable it is, so sorry, i don't know. never used before.

Just to let u know that copper are deadly to most forms of invertebrate life. If u r still not very sure about your tank, i suggest u don't do the conversion. will save u lots of trouble and $$$ in the future.

[jc85]

Thanks for the info.

Actually, my tank has been emptied. Guess will have to go fill it up and test for copper 1st.

[jc85]

Initial test on my tank is cleared of copper.