Debate on Coral Chips as Filtration Medium

[joachimsim]

hi.,

I know that the general consensus among members is that Coral Chips in Sumps or Filters are a NO NO cos it causes build up of more nitrates.

However, I don't understand the theory can someone explain to me.

Ok, I am using Grade 0 Sand in my main tank as main bio filtration cos it doesn;t trap deitrus and has higher surface area.

But for coral chips in the sump etc...I don't understand why they will directly cause more nitrates.

For a given tank with a specific Bio-Load...Nh3 is converted to No2 then to No3. ( Ok I donno where P04 comes into the picture ) So the protein load is specific amt say A. A per day has to get converted by sufficient bacteria to No3 or else there will be No2 or Nh3 spikes.

Hence whether we use Bio-Rings or more sand or even Coral Chips how will that cause more No3?? Doesn;t make sense to me.!

Cos isnt Sand just a FINER version of Coral Chips with more surface area per unit volume thats all?

Somebody please Enlighten me

Thanks!

[strat]

I think coral chips in sump will tend to trap detrius more thus in the end nitrate is increased because of this.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[fangtooth]

first of all, welcome to the world of research.these research theory will never ends.even at my workplace here, today guy A say this should be done.tomorrow guy B say no, this is better. .in other words, you may listen all 10 theories if exist, BUT follow which is best for you.

if you are a layman, forget about theories.same lah , last time people swear by bio balls, now also a NO NO.

[arcanehacker]

same as recently someone say that the DSB need to be mixed once in a while with some sandsifters. Others say that DBS cannot be touched at all..

[alanseah]

same as some say DBS must be 6" while some say only 4" will do...

[Eric]

hi.,

I know that the general consensus among members is that Coral Chips in Sumps or Filters are a NO NO cos it causes build up of more nitrates.

However, I don't understand the theory can someone explain to me.

Ok, I am using Grade 0 Sand in my main tank as main bio filtration cos it doesn;t trap deitrus and has higher surface area.

But for coral chips in the sump etc...I don't understand why they will directly cause more nitrates.

For a given tank with a specific Bio-Load...Nh3 is converted to No2 then to No3. ( Ok I donno where P04 comes into the picture ) So the protein load is specific amt say A. A per day has to get converted by sufficient bacteria to No3 or else there will be No2 or Nh3 spikes.

Hence whether we use Bio-Rings or more sand or even Coral Chips how will that cause more No3?? Doesn;t make sense to me.!

Cos isnt Sand just a FINER version of Coral Chips with more surface area per unit volume thats all?

Somebody please Enlighten me

Thanks!

This is my theory, I do not know if its absolutely correct though, maybe other reefers can commend on it.

To put it on layman terms, coral chips or bioballs or biorings ....etc are stalled where there are aeration taking place for beneficial bacteria to form. Due to their sizes and shape when packed together, there will have some gaps in between each other for the oxygen to interact which is good. But that also gave the detrius/debris/uneaten food a place to be trapped and breakdown from NH3-->NO2-->NO3 if the mechanical filteration eg. sponge is dirty or plugged.

NO3 needs a non-oxygen enviroment to breakdown to N2 thus if there's no DSB to do the conversion, the trapped NO3 or Nitrate will keep increasing turning the coral chips,bio-balls into a Nitrate factory.

So to sum it all, I believe you can use the coral chips or bio-balls as a bio-filteration media provided you keep your mechanical filteration always clean and have a DSB or refugium to help export nutients and breakdown the Nitrate to N2.

[arcanehacker]

but what if there is a sponge infront trapping most of the huge pieces of dirt before the water is passed thru? .. I highly doubt anything else can be stucked on the coral chips.. in this way, I dun see the problem..

maybe someone else can explain the problems with coral chips?

[bawater]

hi.,

I know that the general consensus among members is that Coral Chips in Sumps or Filters are a NO NO cos it causes build up of more nitrates.

However, I don't understand the theory can someone explain to me.

Ok, I am using Grade 0 Sand in my main tank as main bio filtration cos it doesn;t trap deitrus and has higher surface area.

But for coral chips in the sump etc...I don't understand why they will directly cause more nitrates.

For a given tank with a specific Bio-Load...Nh3 is converted to No2 then to No3. ( Ok I donno where P04 comes into the picture ) So the protein load is specific amt say A. A per day has to get converted by sufficient bacteria to No3 or else there will be No2 or Nh3 spikes.

Hence whether we use Bio-Rings or more sand or even Coral Chips how will that cause more No3?? Doesn;t make sense to me.!

Cos isnt Sand just a FINER version of Coral Chips with more surface area per unit volume thats all?

Somebody please Enlighten me

Thanks!

If you bubbled your sand and kept it moving then it will work just like ceramic rings,bio-balls,coral chips.

This is called a fluidised bed filter - on the concept that fine sand grains have a bigger surface area for bacteria.

What you mixed up is that coral chips,bio-balls run in a filter which allows oxygen thru and a perfect place for bio-media to grow the nitrobacteria to break down toxins. This is called nitrification and is an aerobic process(using oxygen).

This is used for fish only systems or when you have a constant high amounts of ammonia being produced.

However - you will be constantly producing NO3 as the end result of all the bacteria's hard work.In reef systems we strive to get low NO3.

You need another kind of bacteria to carry on from here and the bacteria that process nitrate live in anaerobic conditions(oxygen void) and that is in the bottom of a DSB or plenum

So lets take your A sample, if a certain amount of A is put in everyday (and also produced by the livestock) . This A will be used by 2 different types of bacteria that live on the tank glass,liverock and on any surface covered by your tank water - to produce NO2 and then to NO3. If this A is a daily input, bacteria will establish a population to process this amount so you won't see spikes ,unless you get a dead fish or intro 5 new fishes or you pee into the tank increasing this A by quadruple or ten times..in which case there is not enough bacteria to handle this and you see a spike.

So lets say this A turns into 10ppm NO3 everyday.

*The process of taking nitrate and turning it into nitrogen and nitrous oxide gas, is denitrification* and you do not employ it.

NO3 has nowhere to go....so what happens if you keep pouring 10ml of water into a glass everyday? it accumilates.

And there you have your 100ppm NO3.

You have the theory of a Sand FILTER and Sand BED mixed up.

[arcanehacker]

from your explanation, it doesn't mean that coral chips would be so called a nitrate factory. It just means that higher input of A would cause higher NO3.. ?? So with or without coral chip, it is still the same?

[bawater]

If you have enough area for the bacteria to colonize like rock. Yes nearly the same...just that if water is not prefiltered for a wet dry- detrius and particulate will be trapped in there and start to build up and breakdown producing even more NO3 as a final result.

[arcanehacker]

If you have enough area for the bacteria to colonize like rock. Yes nearly the same...just that if water is not prefiltered for a wet dry- detrius and particulate will be trapped in there and start to build up and breakdown producing even more NO3 as a final result.

yah.. so like I said.. If there is some sponge/filter before the coral chips, there wouldn't be detrius going thru and therefore no harm done, right? ..

[Eric]

yah.. so like I said.. If there is some sponge/filter before the coral chips, there wouldn't be detrius going thru and therefore no harm done, right? ..

That's exactly what I felt patenting to my theory. A good maintenance on your mechanical filteration before the Bio-filteration is important in order for yoour bio-balls or coral chips to work plus a DSB for conversion of NO3 to N2.

[bawater]

yes Eric, but its not patent. its called a micron filter.

These filters were the in thing a few yrs ago - the good ones were able to filter down to 1 micron.

But after a while research was done on the actual foods that corals consume and particulate matter is an item on the menu for the majority of them - thus crystal clear water was actually starving them of nutrition. Feeding & nutrition is a relatively new subject.

Now you can hardly find micron filters.

What you propose also seems to show that you intend on a high fish/bioload load system and which you will encounter high NO3 for the first 3/4 of the initial year.The DSB once matured will process a certain amount of NO3- but with High NO3, you may not get Zero readings.

Liverock is also considered bio-filtration and with a lighter fish load and NNR methods a Reef tank can run at Zero levels.

[bawater]

yah.. so like I said.. If there is some sponge/filter before the coral chips, there wouldn't be detrius going thru and therefore no harm done, right? ..

With sponge or filter wool you will catch the majority of the big pieces.

There will be some that get thru. Even trapped within the wool its going to start to decompose. I don't know what is the pore size for wool but its not going to stop anything below 100microns.(it may not even stop anything below 500microns)

Phytoplankton range from 2 microns onwards , if you feed live- some will die and settle. If you feed dead material - its going to settle.

Dead stuff decay.

It won't happen in a day or maybe even a week- but over time in months there will be a build up.

[joachimsim]

Thanks for the discussion guys..BAwater,, need to go back to some of your explanation.

So lets say this A turns into 10ppm NO3 everyday.

*The process of taking nitrate and turning it into nitrogen and nitrous oxide gas, is denitrification* and you do not employ it.

NO3 has nowhere to go....so what happens if you keep pouring 10ml of water into a glass everyday? it accumilates.

And there you have your 100ppm NO3.

>> Yes I understand what NNR with DSB is and what Nitrification thru Sand filter is.

But your explanation doesn't seem to add up. Ok I agree without NNR No3 will keep accumulating. However, what I am saying is that if Bio Load A goes into the water. It has to be processed by Nitrificatio methods to the NO3 stage FIRST before NNR can come into place. OK, a good protein skimmer can skim up some of the bio-load before it breaks down. HOWEVER, whatever is not skimmed up must be broken down into NH3 and NO2 then NO3..you can;t have Nh3 and NO2 lingering in the water and crashing your tank.

So like ArcaneHacker's thread, Whether you have a lot of coral chips of not makes no difference.

I understand deitrus accumulating b/w the chips or bio rings will cause accumulation of Nitrates...but isn't that the same as NOT cleaning your Filter wool/Sponge...making it a nitrate accumulation "factory" to be exact.?

Even IF mechanical filtration is not cleaned and USED...so in a Berlin System...the Deitrus still settles on the Sand and LR>.so some concept of Nitrate Factory again right?

What I am saying is if I am not wrong..using Coral Chips if all parameters are the same...makes no difference to the NO3 level with Bio Load Amount A..which give A amt of NO3...Having Chips is NOT equal to 2A amt of NO3!

I understand that the sand bed in the main tank also acts like a Nitrification Filter?

Ok...2nd Question : Does this Sand bed theory and DSB apply to Freshwater tanks as well??

[joachimsim]

Can I check is LR can be used a NNR tool like DSB or Refugium?

[BarraCudaTM]

Can I check is LR can be used a NNR tool like DSB or Refugium?

can but you will need very bulky and dense rocks to achieve that.

[fangtooth]

bro bawater, lets say i'm keeping a FOWLR, what filer medium should i put in my sump? please explain in layman terms.just the medium name will do, skip the theories.

[bawater]

But your explanation doesn't seem to add up. Ok I agree without NNR No3 will keep accumulating. However, what I am saying is that if Bio Load A goes into the water. It has to be processed by Nitrificatio methods to the NO3 stage FIRST before NNR can come into place. OK, a good protein skimmer can skim up some of the bio-load before it breaks down. HOWEVER, whatever is not skimmed up must be broken down into NH3 and NO2 then NO3..you can;t have Nh3 and NO2 lingering in the water and crashing your tank.

So like ArcaneHacker's thread, Whether you have a lot of coral chips of not makes no difference.

Filter wool needs to be cleaned or changed - if you leave it dirty. Yes, you get the same functions as the above. Most inert materials can serve as a bio-media for example buy a bag of drinking straws and cut into 1cm lengths and fill your sump full, you will find it works just the same as coral chips.

As for FW - i know plenums have been tried before, and i'm sure DSB have been too. NO3 is not a major concern in FW because if its a planted tank you will be dosing ammonia/Nitrate in fertilizer anyway, if just for fish - you should stick to regular water changes (like in Discus keeping).

i left out the 2 groups of bacteria which convert ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate . You should not have ammonia or nitrite in established tanks. You should read zero in home test kits.

If you constantly test for ammonia & nitrite then 1) you have an immature filtration system 2) you way way too may fishes or feed too much 3) either lower your bioload or use a wet dry/trickle/fluidised bed filter because you seriously need to re-evaluate your current filtration or stocking levels. Otherwise you are just waiting for something bad to happen.

If you have balanced livestock and ample LR there will be enough surface area for the nitrification bacteria.

So as in ArcaneHacker's question, ppl will find that coral chips are not needed once the system gets established. If you want to continue using it - its perfectly fine as long as you understand that you may get a constant amount of NO3 coming from it if not kept squeaky clean.

In a Berlin System, your main filtration comes from LR and as barracuda pointed out- you need huge amounts, and you need to keep bioload low. With clean bottoms(glass only) yes you will need to siphon and maintain a clean environment.

In a DSB - the micro life within the bed are the workforce that will turn the bed over slowly and also help to process the detrius/particulate. When you feed phytoplankton- you are in fact also feeding the micro-organisms who live in the sand.

They do what earthworms do on land.

Nitrification will happen on the surface area of the sand (so why coral chips in the sump?). It will not only be limited to sand - bacteria will be on any surface in the water.

[bawater]

bro bawater, lets say i'm keeping a FOWLR, what filer medium should i put in my sump? please explain in layman terms.just the medium name will do, skip the theories.

1)What medium do you use now in filtration?

2)Do you have a problem with Ammonia,Nitrite now?at what levels?

3)What livestocks you have in how big a tank?

4)Do you run a skimmer? which one?

[joachimsim]

Bawater I like to refer you to your statement :

As for FW - i know plenums have been tried before, and i'm sure DSB have been too. NO3 is not a major concern in FW because if its a planted tank you will be dosing ammonia/Nitrate in fertilizer anyway, if just for fish - you should stick to regular water changes (like in Discus keeping).

I am a planted tank hobbylist..and I am very sure AMMONIA and NO3 is not found in the fertilisers! cos it will cause an algae bloom which is not wanted..

NO3 is already supplied by ( as well as NH3 ) by BIo-load..We only use gardening fertilisers those that contain NO3 in small qty if Fishes are not present or insufficient!

Coming back to MARINE :

I have a small bag of bio rings in my sump underneath my BUBBLE REMOVER- which I think also acts as a bio- filter as its is a sponge.

I have problems with NO2 after adding some new LS last week contributing to White Spots in my Powder Tang OThers : Clown Fish Cleaner Wrasse Perched Lips Ago-go, Banded Shrimp abt 5 corals...etc..with abt 30 Kg of LR...Look Up my RECENT thread with PHOTO.

I am running a3FT tank with Sump with 8 KG of LR in the REFUGIUM...- SO I CAn catch fishes easier in the main tank and collect carcasses easier

I have 40 Kg ++ of Sand BED grade 0 Sand

I run a weipro 2013 powered by a 2000l/H powerhead by Atman

I am thinking of putting another bag of BIo RINGS, a bigger bag to provide more surface area for Nitrification...as NO2 has been lingering at 0.25 ppm or more for few days despite rationing in feeding..

Maybe my tank is still immature less than 2 mths..BUt will putting more Bio-media at this stage help the NO2 to drop??

[bawater]

sorry but i didn't look up your tank history before this,

you just started up the 3ft in Feb i understand.

http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.php?...topic=11990&hl=

http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13130

That puts you right in the middle or end of a NO2 peak if you refer to the nitrogen cycle chart. You didn't let this drop naturally before you added new fishes. When you add in a number of fishes in one go there is a surge in waste produced. It will take the bacteria a little while to adjust to the new increase in food source to them.

Fishes dying also added to these amounts.

A DSB will take time to mature.

Whether or not you want to ration on feeding- i leave it up to you.

(i never compromise on feeding)

Yes you may(if you want) use another bag of ceramic rings (it will take 14days or so for bacteria to colonize). You can if you want remove it at a later time too.

i think your system just needs some time to stabilize,that's all.

Just stop adding fish till you test zero NO2.

rgds