Help Needed with

[mantis]

Hi, anyone can offer any solutions, pls help.

I bought a Golden Pymy Angel yesterday and placed it in a 66 ltr quarantine tank (plastic) with a canister filter I took from my main tank (I assume this should provide enuf biological and mechanical filter). The water is also aerated and lighted with a small PL light. Temp is about 27 degree Celcius.

I hvn't checked the parameters but assume it's ok since I took water - half from main tank and half newly mixed. I do not hv any rocks or sand in the quarantine tank except a few large PVC pipes.

It was perfectly healthy (at when I look at it) when I 1st bought it, BUT now after 24 hours, the angle is lying on its side and appears to be breathing heavily. I also noticed some white spots appearing.

Any help or suggestion wat I can do or wat's wrong with it. Shld I try hypo or ICK medicine? I m afraid at its current weak state, any treatment might just push it 'over the edge'.

Thanks.

[neokn]

Better not to add any chemical treatment now as your goldie is currently weak.

Pardon me for saying this, whenever I see my fish laying on it's side and breathing like asthema attack. Most likely they're a goner.

[mantis]

Better not to add any chemical treatment now as your goldie is currently weak.

Pardon me for saying this, whenever I see my fish laying on it's side and breathing like asthema attack. Most likely they're a goner.

I dropped the salinity level to 1012 and surprisingly an hour later, it's swimming around. The lower density probably makes it easier for him to 'breath' n reduces the stress....I think.

U r probably rite - I m not adding any medication now given his weak state. The last time I did that to a Racoon, it died a few hours later.

Will probably monitor over the next few days, with regular partial water changes and hope for the best.

[mantis]

I dropped the salinity level to 1012 and surprisingly an hour later, it's swimming around. The lower density probably makes it easier for him to 'breath' n reduces the stress....I think.

U r probably rite - I m not adding any medication now given his weak state. The last time I did that to a Racoon, it died a few hours later.

Will probably monitor over the next few days, with regular partial water changes and hope for the best.

Angel died this morning . Can't explained it...one moment it was ok, swimming around and the next.......

Perhaps, it's the quarantine tank, hv to re-set up.

[seamonkee]

Angel died this morning . Can't explained it...one moment it was ok, swimming around and the next.......

Perhaps, it's the quarantine tank, hv to re-set up.

Sorry to hear about your loss... I agreed with bro neokn so that's why didn't reply on this matter...

Fishes lying on its side is as good as gone. What you saw was probably its "last struggle".....

[mantis]

Sorry to hear about your loss... I agreed with bro neokn so that's why didn't reply on this matter...

Fishes lying on its side is as good as gone. What you saw was probably its "last struggle".....

Thks bro. It's really a pity. It's such a beautiful angel.

Well, unless someone can offer some clues as to waht could hv gone wrong...I really want to avoid a 'repeat'....cos I m certainly getting another one.

[seamonkee]

What's the time difference between you setting up the QT (preparing the water) and putting in the angel...

Usually, we let the water in the QT run for few days to "mature" before putting in the fish...

Wonder this could be the possibility... in most ammonia/nitrite toxication, the fish is usually lying on its side and breathing heavily.... then die...

[mantis]

What's the time difference between you setting up the QT (preparing the water) and putting in the angel...

Usually, we let the water in the QT run for few days to "mature" before putting in the fish...

Wonder this could be the possibility... in most ammonia/nitrite toxication, the fish is usually lying on its side and breathing heavily.... then die...

Hmmm....a possibility indeed. The QT was set up with 50% water from main tank and 50% newly mixed water....but It was left standing for less than 24 hrs. So yes, could be. for info on possible cause of death.

[madmac]

Well, unless someone can offer some clues as to waht could hv gone wrong...I really want to avoid a 'repeat'....cos I m certainly getting another one.

its the water in ur qt that killed tt beautiful fish! It was toxic... u clued in e answer, when the fish recovered after dropin the SG, the dilution allowed to fish to recover and quite quickly too... however the toxins continued to leak from your canister filter and it overwhelm the fish in the nite... what were you thinkin... its entirely your fault in this case as e qt was not prepared sufficiently earlier and further you didn't test the parameters and assumed it was OK!

If you luv the fish so much, you should hv done some rsch on the husbandry on this pygmy before you brought it home... if you're not sure, you could have jus posted e q, someone wud hv offered to help...

We've seen so many deaths of this pygmy here in SRC... no question its cute looking but you owe the dead golden pygmy this responsibility to make sure the next one lives.

I can think of several points off-hand about for choosing fish... maybe some reefers can add to it

• eyes alert looking

• fish is active

• Batman pointed a good one out the other time... make sure its difficult to catch

• breathing is steady/slow/relax... not fast

• no disease markings on the body (buy at your own risk)

• ask for the fish to be fed...

on the last point, Copps in RC, did this when he wanted to pick a Regal... he paid a deposit to the LFS to keep e fish for the next two weeks... and even left his own fish food there for them to feed so that the fish would get use to them... and he went down somedays/evryday to feed the Regal... talk about passion. Anyway, theres quite a good method, provided the LFS agrees to it... as you are passing the qt responsibility to him... when he got it home... he just release th fis into the maintank and its systems go from there.

If e LFS is not agreeable to that then, i think its best if u had just release her into you maintank...IMHO believe tt for certain fishes, esp the shy..ier ones, its your best chances of success ... they are going there eventually and its the "best" you can give... for a very critical period --- the acclimatization of your newly bought precious fish. nobody spends time perfecting their QT... its too much trouble for something that temporary wif nothing jus yet..( not advisable for a Tangs, tts a different story... you do need QTing.) while you're at tt, don't consider a a beta box or whatever other things... jus completely release, n eliminate the stress.

[seamonkee]

They dun call u madmac for nothing, bro... Be relax on bro. mantis and dun go too hard on him.... I think we are all learning here...

Though I agree with you generally but I must disagree on some points... QT is definitely advisable for all sorts of fishes and not tangs alone... Ich has a low level of host specificity, meaning it will infect just about any fish in a tropical marine environment. Cartilaginous fishes (sharks and rays) appear resistant, but everything else is susceptible to infection and not just tangs alone.

Yes, the chances of a fish carrying ich from the sea is near zero... however, most fishes pick up iches from LFS shops which has tanks that are badly maintained... (That's why we advocate again and again that WHO you buy the fish from is very important). Releasing fishes directly into the main tank is possible provided you are very sure of the water quality of the tanks in the LFS. How many LFS in Singapore honestly has good practices? I can only name one or two...

I dun blame the LFS because it is the buying habits of the reefers here in Singapore that influence their business style. Fishes are conveniently near us (from neighbouring countries) and in a cheaper price (than in America). That's why most reefers end up in a cycle of buying, fish dying, buying, fish dying... it doesn't really matter to them cause fishes are generally cheaper here in Singapore since we are the wholesale distributor to other parts of the world.

When you live in other parts of the world where fishes are not so available and when one clown fish can set you back US$15 of more, then we will all understand the importance of SLLLOOOWWW stocking and proper quarantine practices to ensure fish longevity...

QT needs to be carried out carefully and in a planned and proper manner. Daily observation and checks need to be carried out religiously by the reefer. Sad to say, most reefers find this practice too cumbersome or they failed to do more reading up on QT.... If setting QT is too troublesome, then I won't advise this hobby to these people in the first place. A quarantine tank is often likened as part of your tank system, says most professional marine hobbyists.

More than just a tank, QT include planning ahead before buying any fish, good observations and patience. Sad to say, most hobbyists here bought fishes on impulse without checking on its health or even see if there is a compatibility issue with their current fishes.

There are strict rulings to good QT practices..... this include the size of the QT tank (2ft minimum), good filter system, regular water change (from main tank) as well as proper shelter (with sawn-off PVC pipes)... Copper treatment is secondary and only in use when you suspect the health state of your fish.

Bottomline, QT is about giving yourself more time to observe the fish at home before releasing it and putting your other fishes in your main tank at risk.

For myself, I will run water in the QT for a week if I plan to buy any fish and go to a reputable LFS and buy only one fish at one time....

Actually, releasing fish directly into a main tank with already other fishes in it CAN BE more stressful for your fish.... Think about it, if you use 100% water from your main tank (which should be the case) for your QT, you are as good as acclimitising your fish to your main tank parameters without having it to fight for territory with other fishes at the same time. When the fish is acclimitised to your tank water parameters in the QT and then releasing it later in the main tank, you are giving it more chances to survive... having to face stress elements only one at a time...

Good QT practices is POSSIBLE and can actually up the chances of your fish survival rate provided you first do sufficient reading about the fish you are buying and that you advocate strict and proper regimens for your QT without being lazy...

Oh yeah, I am quaranting my sailfin tang at the moment, now it is able to feed from my hand...

[madmac]

Hey, bro mantis...pls don't take it personal... I'm jus taking about this one case, since u asked for it... I'm also learning here and always try to comment on matters I've experienced only.

you know SM, those are very good points you've brought up... I'm remember reading an article by A. Calfo on good quarantine practices up in Reefkeeping.com.. it was also well written... came away wondering why I don't do it... must be the laziness in me.

jus sticking on topic, it is this golden pygmy... it is a very small fish, and they are known to be shy and timid, they take some time to get accustomed to the environment and again IMHO, believe they get easily stressed... so even when they are oked after the qt... you put them in main tank, another whole new environment starts again... they get bullied, go into hiding and stressed out, refuse to eat, starved or disease out.

Use your thinking eyes and have a heart.

[tineng]

I can think of several points off-hand about for choosing fish... maybe some reefers can add to it

I know some of the bros here will say this is stupid advise and LFS owners are not to be trusted....but for me, its important to work with them in order to have the best chances of getting nice healthy fish.....reason is simple....

- they are probably the first person to handle the fish from the time it arrives at the store, so they know best the conditions which it arrives in

- sometime, fishes are simply not in the mood to 'look good'....but some LFS owner/assistance are confident its a nice piece and other people has missed out the good deal

- sometime its just luck that the fish eat foods that are dropped in at the time you are buying the fish....only the LFS knows if it is really eating....

Spent time talking to LFS owners and their assistant....find out who is experience and sincere about they fish they sell.....then learn to trust them ....

Finally, i don't agreed with letting the LFS do QT if you can help it.....because end of the day, even the most respectable LFS does not have dedicated QT facilities....its simply does not make business sense...

[blackpuma]

Hi all,

There has been a lot going on about quarantine and quarantine tanks.

To me it is always a risk when you introduce new LS into an establishd tank of healty fishes.

Basically you have two choices, the 100% foolproof one is to set up a full fledge quarantine tank and mimic the envioroment that the fish is used to. In the case of the golden pygmy, you can put a few pieces of LR into the QT so that the fish can hide and eventually take aquarium food.

The other calculated option is to buy LS from good LFS and pay a little more. This option although not foolproof will at least minimize the risk of infection in your display tank.

Asking the LFS to keep your fish for a few weeks is a good idea but a lot of LFS will not want to take the responsibility. I offered to pay for full for a fish at a LFS but he did not want to take the fish under his care for 3 weeks.

Another method I adopt is not to "cheong" for fish. When I see a fish I like, I will make another trip to the LFS a few days later to see how the fish is doing. If the fish is sold, so be it, bad luck, but I beleive very soon I will see another fish I like.

There are cheap fishes to be found everywhere and some LFS even sell them straight in the plastic bag. I will avoid these "plastic bag" purchases at all cost. For cheap fishes, you can take a risk if you have a QT. I beleive the cheap fish and more expensive fish is from the same source, mostly cynide caught but it depends on how the LFS condition the fish to eat. When a fish is eating, he can demand a higher price.

The savings between a cheap fish and a conditoned fish is as much as $ 9 for a black poma angel. For me I will go for the cheaper fish if I have a QT but definately buy the more expensive conditioned fish if I have no QT.

For tangs, there are no exception, quarantine is a must. A %^&WTby powder blue tang infected all my fishes and caused a total wipe out several years back.

Just my two cents.

[seamonkee]

Hey, bro mantis...pls don't take it personal... I'm jus taking about this one case, since u asked for it... I'm also learning here and always try to comment on matters I've experienced only. 

you know SM, those are very good points you've brought up... I'm remember reading an article by A. Calfo on good quarantine practices up in Reefkeeping.com.. it was also well written... came away wondering why I don't do it... must be the laziness in me.

jus sticking on topic, it is this golden pygmy... it is a very small fish, and they are known to be shy and timid, they take some time to get accustomed to the environment and again IMHO, believe they get easily stressed... so even when they are oked after the qt... you put them in main tank, another whole new environment starts again... they get bullied, go into hiding and stressed out, refuse to eat, starved or disease out.

Use your thinking eyes and have a heart.

I agree... that's why I have decided to stay clear of angels till at least my tank is one year older or more...

We should avoid exotic fishes unless we are very confident its a healthy specimen that is eating... but usually such fishes are rare and come at a high price tag... I rather not risk it...

As for the point of putting into QT and then releasing into the main tank and facing a whole new environment again... I think I have failed in trying to illustrate the point I am bringing across....

Let's see if I can put this in words better....

Now, remember there are at least three main stressors a new fish has to face are (I'm not sure what others there are):

1) New water parameters

2) Surroundings

3) Competition with other fishes for territory.

To me, if we QT with water from your main tank, we are allowing the fish to adjust at least to water parameter conditions similar to the main tank minus competition with other fishes and surroundings.... Then when it is conditioned and released into the main tank, it faces the other two stressors with the need to adjust to water parameters conditions lessen... it's like segregating the stressors so the fish dun have to face too many at one go...

In fact it is written that this is one of the main perks of having a QT...

Imagine someone having learnt that he lost his job, lost his wife and diagnosed with a disease all in one day... Then he has to cope with it.... as compared to someone who received bad news one after the other over a span of time.... To me, the second chap has a better surviving chance....

Lastly, Lots of PVC pipes in QT as hiding places really help a lot in lowering the stress for your fishes... In fact, A Calfo also advocate having the side and back of your QT tank painted in black to minimise the environment stressors on the fish.

[mantis]

Hey, bro mantis...pls don't take it personal... I'm jus taking about this one case, since u asked for it... I'm also learning here and always try to comment on matters I've experienced only.

you know SM, those are very good points you've brought up... I'm remember reading an article by A. Calfo on good quarantine practices up in Reefkeeping.com.. it was also well written... came away wondering why I don't do it... must be the laziness in me.

jus sticking on topic, it is this golden pygmy... it is a very small fish, and they are known to be shy and timid, they take some time to get accustomed to the environment and again IMHO, believe they get easily stressed... so even when they are oked after the qt... you put them in main tank, another whole new environment starts again... they get bullied, go into hiding and stressed out, refuse to eat, starved or disease out.

Use your thinking eyes and have a heart.

Of cos, I wldn't take it personally. I do not know u, do I? Besides, u provided some information as well on the possible cause of death and that's what I wanted to know.

Seamonkey - Thanks bro, u represent the kind of seniors who are most appreciated here.....cool, calm and collected and full of info.

[seamonkee]

paiseh paiseh.... I chalked such a high number of postings not because I am knowledgable in reefing... but because I have been asking too many questions...

To be honest, I am still learning as much as I can...

but glad I was of help...