SRC Member SantaMonica Posted March 24, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted March 24, 2009 Part 7 of 7: "The Food of Reefs, Part 7: Dissolved Nutrients" by Eric Borneman http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/eb/index.php "Mucus consists of mainly sugars and glycoproteins - soluble materials in and of themselves. However, the formation of mucus, and its release in a matrix of chains of these materials, may result in a particulate material. This material is both utilized directly by many organisms, and also forms the basis for a predominant fraction of the particulate "marine snow" on reefs. "In fact, reef waters are 30-40% higher in DOM [disolved organic matter] than oceanic waters. "In terms of determining the degree to which organisms may use dissolved material as significant source of nutrition, one may examine the surface area of the outer cell membranes exposed to such materials. In general, the larger the absorptive area, the more likely organisms are to depend on absorption. Some cell surfaces are covered with many finger-like processes called microvilli that greatly increase the surface area of the membrane. Furthermore, the presence of cilia is often a good indicator of absorptive surfaces. Perhaps not surprisingly, corals have extensive microvilli and cilia. "Corals are able to take up various forms of both organic and inorganic dissolved nitrogen. "Even slightly elevated nitrogen levels can quickly result in rapid increases in the density of zooxanthellae, as they use it to fuel their own reproduction" [and thus turn the coral brown] "It is also somewhat equivocal that corals are able to utilize nitrate (which exists nearly totally in its ionic state at physiological pH) at all, and an inability to find nitrate reductase in many studies, makes the ultimate importance of this dissolved nitrogen source to corals (and anemones) rather tenuous. However, it is unambiguously true that ammonium is a sought-after nitrogen source by both coral host and algal partner. "Humic (refractory) compounds: These yellowing compounds are typically found at relatively high levels in aquaria, and they are removed with protein skimming and activated carbon. Humic materials have been thought to be relatively inert and unavailable for use as a nutrient source. However, studies have shown that organisms from bacteria to brine shrimp (Artemia salina) can utilize humic substances as a source of nutrients. "In terms of corals reefs, the amounts of most dissolved nutrients, except carbon in most cases, are very low. "The higher nutrient levels may cause corals and other symbiotic partnerships to decline as the partner algae preferentially utilize the increased nutrient sources to the expense of the host. [and thus browning of the coral occurs] "Without question, corals and many reef organisms are able to utilize dissolved nutrients to help meet their energy requirements and to use in tissue growth. Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowtanker Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Bro Creetin, thanks for yr kind words. Priviledge is mine to know a nice reefer bro like you! Bro SantaMonica - Part 7 of 7 already?! The End? Please don't let this wonderful thread come to an end. Once again, thanks for a great great thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member SantaMonica Posted March 24, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted March 24, 2009 No tanker, that is just the quotes from Eric's articles, from his Food series. There are more from him, and more from others, that I'll post periodically. Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowtanker Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 No tanker, that is just the quotes from Eric's articles, from his Food series. There are more from him, and more from others, that I'll post periodically. Phew... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snaper Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Hi S.M, Finally i manage to get my Nano Scrubber Box up running after the second attempt and this is the result from 1st to 5th day. Been running it 24/7 as i got nothing to seed on the screen and also wanted to see fast result. Will start running it with 18hr of light On today as theres something growing on the screen already. For now im running both the scrubber and skimmer. Rgds Snaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member SantaMonica Posted March 27, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted March 27, 2009 Looks really neat. Where is the pump? Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snaper Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Looks really neat. Where is the pump? Im using my returned pump from the IOS and split it to my scrubber and main tank. By the way should i turn off my prizm skimmer cuz theres not much skimate and the only time when it skim is 1hr after i dose food for the coral. For my Scrubber im using 8 x 5 screen shine on one side as my tank volume is about 20gl. For the light, currently im using 2x11watt =22watt 2700k as i cant find a 23watt bulb. Is my scrubber set-up ok? Rgds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member SantaMonica Posted March 28, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted March 28, 2009 Yes your lights are good for that small size. And yes turn off the skimmer; why remove all that food. Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snaper Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Yes your lights are good for that small size. And yes turn off the skimmer; why remove all that food. ok, will turn off the skimmer then. So will run purely run on scrubber only? So should continue do partial water change or just once in a while. Rgds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member peacemaker Posted March 28, 2009 SRC Member Share Posted March 28, 2009 Bro Creetin, do you have any before and after pics of your display ever since using the scrubber? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member SantaMonica Posted March 28, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted March 28, 2009 If the purpose of a water change is to remove nitrate and phosphate, then you don't need to do them any more. The scrubber (as long as it is growing algae) removes everything that needs removing (just like the ocean). A scrubber, however, does not remove things like medications and poisions. Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snaper Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 If the purpose of a water change is to remove nitrate and phosphate, then you don't need to do them any more. The scrubber (as long as it is growing algae) removes everything that needs removing (just like the ocean). A scrubber, however, does not remove things like medications and poisions. Ok, has already turn off the skimmer and purely running on scrubber...will feedback and update on my scrubber on the 15th day...hope to see more growth on the screen...any update on your tank S.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member SantaMonica Posted March 28, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted March 28, 2009 I just took some pics of the sps, will post soon. Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member SantaMonica Posted March 28, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted March 28, 2009 Update: Other ways to reduce nutrients If you are using a scrubber, here are some other permanent ways to reduce nutrients (aside from feeding less), starting with the easiest first: o Remove floss/foam/socks (they trap food and cause it to rot). o Remove chaeto (also traps food and causes it to rot). o Remove bio balls (or similar media) slowly (they create excess nitrate, and trap food). o Remove all sand in your sump (food settles in sand and rots); if anything, use LR. o Use kalkwasser (lime water) in your top-off (the higher pH causes phosphate to precipitate). o Change any area of the sump that lets food settle to the bottom; all food should continue through the sump and back to the display (this is why an open sump is best). o Reduce sand in your display to 1/4 inch (6mm), or increase it to 4 inches (10cm). o Using an ultraviolet sterilizer also helps reduce phosphates, but it also kills the live pods that come from the scrubber; thus it's not recommended for normal use. Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member Creetin Posted March 29, 2009 SRC Member Share Posted March 29, 2009 Bro Creetin, do you have any before and after pics of your display ever since using the scrubber? hi bro i was from day 1 on the scrubber, so its a from day 1 thing i am working on the display part Quote Get Paid To Read Emails. Free To Join Now! http://www.emailcashpro.com/?r=okdk11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member SantaMonica Posted March 30, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted March 30, 2009 Update: Screen roughness If your screen is only growing little spots of algae here and there, it means the screen is not rough enough. What is happening is that algae is trying to attach and grow all over the screen, but the water washes the algae away. Only a few areas have enough roughness for the algae to hang on in the water flow. So, you need to remove the screen and really really really sand/scrape/rough it up. If it's a clear screen (i.e., acrylic), you should not be able to see through it. If it's a plastic canvas screen, it should feel prickly. For highest results (and highest maintenance)... rug canvas works the best, but it only lasts so long before it comes apart. Then you have to make a new one. Whatever you use, make it as rough as possible. Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member SantaMonica Posted April 2, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted April 2, 2009 Successes Update: Macman on the RF site: "To show how affective these scrubbers are I have carried out a little experiment. As you may know I have been running a small 180 litre tank fully stocked with corals and fish, running an external filter and an internal filter. My nitrates have always been between 7 and 12, but I recently had a death of one of my fish and corals which put the nitrate through the roof (and I mean through the roof!) Between 80 and 100 VERY SERIOUS. I decided with my new 7 week old 400 litre tank (which only runs a scrubber) and has nitrates at <1 to carry out a few water exchanges [between the new and old tanks]. I exchanged approximately 80-100 litres in about 5 days, and saw my nitrates go from <1 to nearer 50 in the new tank (A little worrying, but to be expected when considering the concentration of nitrates in the smaller tank). That [nitrate] test was carried out on 12th March. I carried out the same [nitrate] test last night, 25th March, on the scrubber tank and my nitrates are 25. Like I said before this tank has only a scrubber within its system, and live rock. The only thing I did notice [on the new tank] before the water exchange was that I was getting to a period where I was getting a nice light green algae build up on the scrubber, and once I had done the water exchange the algae went back to a dirty black/brown on the scrubber. Only this morning have I started to see a little green again, so it has set me back a few weeks. This system does work and this proofs it. I must admit I was a little concerned when my water went near to 50, but the scrubber came good for me." Melonbob on the LR site: "Well, just figured I'd update my success story. February 2nd I set up my algae scrubber, and clean one side every friday. I've gone from at least 30-40 nitrates down to less than 5 as of todays test! And lets just say I'm very lazy with water changes.......lol! I'm jazzed!" Creetin on the SRC site: "day 60 update...! i prolly will stop counting the days but so far i have to say 2 months into the scrubber thingy and i am totally sold on it! its amazing such a great kick algae ###### idea has remained eluded from most of us...so SM, allow me to say that you are truly my idol!!! This has got to be one of the single most important 'discoveries' being revealed...." Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherman Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 My algae scrubber power by 8 LEDS Quote 6.5 * 2 * 2 + 3.75 * 1.5 *1.5,(Decomn on 14/9/08) 4*2*2 + 2.5*1.25*1.25 (Decomn on 1/8/09) 5*2*2 (Fully LED light system, 140 3 watt SSC leds with 60 degree lens)(Decomm) 2.5*2*2(Fully LED Light System,96 3 watt SSC leds with 60 degree lens)(Decomm) 5*2.5*2(LED only) Eheim return 1 * pump 1 HP Daikin compressor with cooling coil 2 Jebao OW40, 1 ecotech MP40, 1X6085 Tunze wm, 1 CURVE 7 Skimmer  1 DIY 80 led control by Bluefish mini 1 radion XR30W G2, 2 Radion XR15G3 Sump area lite by 5 ft T5 , 6 * SSC 3 watt red LED for refugium 1 Full spectrum E27 led light 1 CR control by bubble count Start No Water Change since 1st Dec 2016 Add new 2.5x2x 1.5 ft  [/quote]  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherman Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 The LED algae scrubber setup on 8th Mar 2009 Quote 6.5 * 2 * 2 + 3.75 * 1.5 *1.5,(Decomn on 14/9/08) 4*2*2 + 2.5*1.25*1.25 (Decomn on 1/8/09) 5*2*2 (Fully LED light system, 140 3 watt SSC leds with 60 degree lens)(Decomm) 2.5*2*2(Fully LED Light System,96 3 watt SSC leds with 60 degree lens)(Decomm) 5*2.5*2(LED only) Eheim return 1 * pump 1 HP Daikin compressor with cooling coil 2 Jebao OW40, 1 ecotech MP40, 1X6085 Tunze wm, 1 CURVE 7 Skimmer  1 DIY 80 led control by Bluefish mini 1 radion XR30W G2, 2 Radion XR15G3 Sump area lite by 5 ft T5 , 6 * SSC 3 watt red LED for refugium 1 Full spectrum E27 led light 1 CR control by bubble count Start No Water Change since 1st Dec 2016 Add new 2.5x2x 1.5 ft  [/quote]  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherman Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 The algae growth ad seen today Quote 6.5 * 2 * 2 + 3.75 * 1.5 *1.5,(Decomn on 14/9/08) 4*2*2 + 2.5*1.25*1.25 (Decomn on 1/8/09) 5*2*2 (Fully LED light system, 140 3 watt SSC leds with 60 degree lens)(Decomm) 2.5*2*2(Fully LED Light System,96 3 watt SSC leds with 60 degree lens)(Decomm) 5*2.5*2(LED only) Eheim return 1 * pump 1 HP Daikin compressor with cooling coil 2 Jebao OW40, 1 ecotech MP40, 1X6085 Tunze wm, 1 CURVE 7 Skimmer  1 DIY 80 led control by Bluefish mini 1 radion XR30W G2, 2 Radion XR15G3 Sump area lite by 5 ft T5 , 6 * SSC 3 watt red LED for refugium 1 Full spectrum E27 led light 1 CR control by bubble count Start No Water Change since 1st Dec 2016 Add new 2.5x2x 1.5 ft  [/quote]  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherman Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 The growth on the other side of the net Quote 6.5 * 2 * 2 + 3.75 * 1.5 *1.5,(Decomn on 14/9/08) 4*2*2 + 2.5*1.25*1.25 (Decomn on 1/8/09) 5*2*2 (Fully LED light system, 140 3 watt SSC leds with 60 degree lens)(Decomm) 2.5*2*2(Fully LED Light System,96 3 watt SSC leds with 60 degree lens)(Decomm) 5*2.5*2(LED only) Eheim return 1 * pump 1 HP Daikin compressor with cooling coil 2 Jebao OW40, 1 ecotech MP40, 1X6085 Tunze wm, 1 CURVE 7 Skimmer  1 DIY 80 led control by Bluefish mini 1 radion XR30W G2, 2 Radion XR15G3 Sump area lite by 5 ft T5 , 6 * SSC 3 watt red LED for refugium 1 Full spectrum E27 led light 1 CR control by bubble count Start No Water Change since 1st Dec 2016 Add new 2.5x2x 1.5 ft  [/quote]  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member SantaMonica Posted April 3, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted April 3, 2009 Interesting. Can you show more of the LED panel, and how it sits in relation to the screen? You are cleaning weekly now, correct? Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member SantaMonica Posted April 4, 2009 Author SRC Member Share Posted April 4, 2009 Excerpt from "Waste Extraction, the Invertibrate Way" by Ron Shimek http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/rs/index.php "The animal poops it out, and from then on the scavengers/detritivores get rid of it." This is, of course, a very concise way of thinking about the elimination of uneaten food from the digestive tract. Unfortunately, it has nothing at all to do with what biologists consider to be waste. Not to put too fine a point on it, but fecal matter is nothing more than uneaten, partially digested and processed food. "Actual waste materials are something else altogether. Strictly speaking, to a biologist, only a couple types of materials are truly waste materials. These are the byproducts of cellular respiration and protein metabolism, which in most animals, are carbon dioxide and ammonia, respectively. [scrubbers remove ammonia and carbon dioxide; skimmers do not] Quote Nutrient Removal Discussion Research Studies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member [V]tEc Posted April 4, 2009 SRC Member Share Posted April 4, 2009 anyone has coraline algea growing on ur scrubber? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherman Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Interesting. Can you show more of the LED panel, and how it sits in relation to the screen? You are cleaning weekly now, correct? Maybe this is a clearer picture of my earlier version of algae scrubber using T5 lite Quote 6.5 * 2 * 2 + 3.75 * 1.5 *1.5,(Decomn on 14/9/08) 4*2*2 + 2.5*1.25*1.25 (Decomn on 1/8/09) 5*2*2 (Fully LED light system, 140 3 watt SSC leds with 60 degree lens)(Decomm) 2.5*2*2(Fully LED Light System,96 3 watt SSC leds with 60 degree lens)(Decomm) 5*2.5*2(LED only) Eheim return 1 * pump 1 HP Daikin compressor with cooling coil 2 Jebao OW40, 1 ecotech MP40, 1X6085 Tunze wm, 1 CURVE 7 Skimmer  1 DIY 80 led control by Bluefish mini 1 radion XR30W G2, 2 Radion XR15G3 Sump area lite by 5 ft T5 , 6 * SSC 3 watt red LED for refugium 1 Full spectrum E27 led light 1 CR control by bubble count Start No Water Change since 1st Dec 2016 Add new 2.5x2x 1.5 ft  [/quote]  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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