MH photoperiod for SPS corals

[madmac]

Came across a thread : Run a short hilide photoperiod and wonder if any keepers here buy into it...or have successfully implemented this.

I've tried it after my lights mod, by reducing from 7 hrs to 4 hrs... What I discovered was, the purple ones browned very quickly, it was noticeably duller after 2 days after, the green ones held well. To be fair, there were too many changing varibles... conversion to BB was one, the other was the removal of my canisters and finally the change the lights from 2 150 mh to 1 250W/T5 combination... I couldn't conclude. So I stopped after testing for 1 week and went back to the 7 hrs norm... after about 3 weeks, the purple colors came back now.. so it may be a good time to start the test again.

any views?

[Reefaholic]

IMO, defintely reducing the photoperiod will turn the corals to brown. not only sps. Imagine, in the wild, there is about min 10hrs of lighting from the sun. Not to mention other parameters like PO4 or NO3.

So i suggest that min photoperiod should be 8 hrs. better if 10hrs.

Just my thoughts.

[hamannbmw]

IMO, defintely reducing the photoperiod will turn the corals to brown. not only sps. Imagine, in the wild, there is about min 10hrs of lighting from the sun. Not to mention other parameters like PO4 or NO3.

So i suggest that min photoperiod should be 8 hrs. better if 10hrs.

Just my thoughts.

Wat if its raining cats n dogs for a few days or even weeks ? what will happen to the sps in the sea ??? Jus my thoughts... its a very good topic about photo period..

[madmac]

There are some very good points:

SPS colours will intensify, as they get just enough zoox, remember too much and they brown(e.g. too much NO3, will up the zoox, causing thickening)... therefore by limiting the exposure of light, the zoox cannot over multiply, enough is jus produced for the consumption of the coral.

It has been shown that over-exposure causes the 'bleaching', paleness/whitening to some SPS

Its saves energy and your $$$$

It says turn on for a two hour intense period, but you'll still need overall lighting(not intense lighting) for 6 to 10 hrs... makes good sense to me.

[AlfaRomeo]

Thats how bomber is running his tank rite? but u must remember his tank is super clean . For our tanks, maybe a photoperiod of about 5-6 hours of intense MH should be sufficient instead of the de facto standard of 9-10 hours previously preached. Overall lighting period still needs to be at leasts 10 hours. Maybe 2 hours of Actinics then 5-6 hours of MH and followed by 2 hours of Actinics?

[madmac]

Yup, Bomber's alright. and theres nothing preventing us from achieving what he has done... he revealed 'nuts and bolts' of BB... truly wonderful. I've learnt so much from it.

Thats the notion that seems to be prevalent in that thread, one doesn't need intense lighting.. jus enough for producing saturation, with is max 2 hours. For those who tried reducing the photoperiod, the results were mostly pleasing.

[scarab]

I beg to differ in the short photoperiod issue. No matter how much lights we run on our tank it can never match the duration and intensity of the sunlight the corals receive in the sea. So it's more a personal preference on the photoperiod issue.

For every nice short photoperiod tank, I can show you many beautiful long photoperiod tank. So the truth on shortened photoperiod is still out there. There are more to this than just light photoperiod.

One example of an excellent tank from RC is from Joe Burger (JB_NY). He runs his MH for 9 hours and his actinics for 13 hours. Link to his tank in RC is below.

JB_NY's tank

[ddr]

Bombers point is that he is giving his corals enough light to reach photoinhibition. Which for him thats 2hrs of MH + all the VHO he uses.

If you have different lights & a different tank, you will need to work out your own times for coral photoinhibition.

A coral doesnt need to recieve any more light once its reached that point so if you burn you MH for 5hrs longer than that you (Acording to him/others) are just wasting electricity.

Thats what I understood from the discussion anyway.

Dan.

[madmac]

scarab, fully agree with you on that... the point being made is, one doesn't need to match the intensity and duration of the sun to achieve the same. The same, of course is "anything that works for you"... colour preferences is too subjective, however, the notion is whats being challenge here. "Why do you need to match?"; we don't attempt to do a moon phase on the sun's daily intensity. Max saturation is saturation and thats all they need.

The other variable is what Alpha bought up, a (super) clean tank would do wonders to help the colours... not one would dispute that.

JB_NY and yours are truly amazing tanks, it serves to demonstrate that 'extended' duration is needed for tanks which are not "super clean"... that beauty can still be achieved...but with added resources. Even Bomber has said that in the "Starboard reef is up and running" thread, that before one intends to lower their lighting/intensity duration, be sure to make sure that the NO3 has come down first. -- with due respect to you, scarab... I hv no ranking on my sleeves.

[scarab]

Ranking????? Don't understand that. Nobody is pulling rank here as this I feel this is an open discussion.

It's not the issue of whose tank is nicer using short or long photoperiod. We are not here to judge on the duration of photoperiod.

What I'm trying to say theoretical conclusions which lead to short photoperiods like photoinhibition for corals is IMO theoretical and that varies from species to species. Different SPS species require different light intensity and spectrum to thrive. While you can provide some with 2 hours of intense (here the definition of intense come into play, how intense is intense?) light and they do well, other more light loving SPS will suffer. Hence you will end up either not being able to keep two thirds of the SPS species or you end up browning out a lot of SPS due to your trial and error.

Hence I'm giving my view on the opposite side of short photoperiod, so that SPS keepers especially the budding ones won't be disillusioned when they run their lights for only 2 hours a day after reading this thread, and their corals brown out.

A primitive suggestion to achieve your optimum photoperiod, is to start running your light for long periods, say 10 hours. After say 2 weeks, if the corals are doing fine, reduce it by 1 hour and monitor again for another 2 weeks. In the meantime you must keep up your husbandry so that the only varying parameter is the photoperiod. Then keep reducing the 1 hour photoperiod every 2 weeks until your corals show adverse effect. Bring it back to the duration prior to the final reduction and that should be your optimum photoperiod. I did this to reduce my photo period from 10 hours to 8 hours.

A more technical way is to measure your total PAR of your light in the tank and work out your photoperiod from there. This I haven't learn.

[madmac]

I didn't mean you're pulling rank here, I'm respecting your views here as one, who amongst having a beautiful tank, also has TOTM badge... and that was all that statement was about.. you may have read too much into it.

Again, these points you bought out are so true. If your read on the thread, now ATJ has updated with it with some evidence, suggesting that one needs perhaps more than 2 hours... These are all debatable points, coral type, duration, intensity, clarity, nutrients, respiration, food, flow etc... but back to topic, saturation is what it is... achieving saturation was the point he's trying to bring out... perhaps we don't give enough, vis-a-vis other aspects of SPS keeping, whereas what the others in the thread, were trying to point out was, based on non-empirical data and just doin it, was that reducing works for them... mind you, most there didn't bring it down to 2 hours, but did reduce it nonetheless.

scarab, I'm not contesting your points, merely stating that with saturation, all other things being equal, one doesn't need to provide further intense lighting, reducing it can work too. Your "primitive" method of trying it out seems to me to be the safest way of testing it out.

as we appreciate aspects of reef-keeping, being natural and all, we should a similar regard for Nature, and its resources, namely energy... believe its truly odd for some to utilize energy like nobody's business, even though they can afford it, and over use it to keep a tank of corals... but hey I guess its not my business.

[scarab]

We are posting our views right? You ask for any views, so I post. Is there a need to mention what TOTM badge or that sort??? Everyone who post here has a right to their views. Doesn't mean someone with a better looking tank has more right to express their view. That's nonsense.

The danger here is everyone else who read the postings can only make their own conclusion. I'm giving a different side which first is my view and second will help reefers here to conclude with more chioces and not swayed unknowingly.

Enough said.

Another thing is, I don't really understand the meaning of 'super-clean' tank. Care to enlighten me?

[madmac]

this

It's not the issue of whose tank is nicer using short or long photoperiod. We are not here to judge on the duration of photoperiod.

then, why this?

For every nice short photoperiod tank, I can show you many beautiful long photoperiod tank. So the truth on shortened photoperiod is still out there. There are more to this than just light photoperiod.

One example of an excellent tank from RC is from Joe Burger (JB_NY). He runs his MH for 9 hours and his actinics for 13 hours. Link to his tank in RC is below.

Is there a need to mention what TOTM badge or that sort???

I didn't want to, you thought I was telling you not to pull rank and I was clarifying my statement towards you. The rank I mentioned was a mark of respect towards your views, and I'll say it again here, quite a few ppl have beautiful tanks here, but few have badges...you're one of them... pls don't be too sensitive... I didn't think much when I wrote it... you're still carrying it.

personally I'd prefer your 2nd posting here.. it contains much good advise for those whom you say can benefit... perhaps from being mislead by the topic here, that a shortened halide may do wonders...

I write with intention to widen the popular notion of long lighting periods that there are more ways to achieve colours... one of which is to reduce the photo-period of intense lighting.... while still knowing that there are other ways of achieving beautiful tanks...

Super-clean? was in brackets... it was brought up as a follow thru' to Alpha comments that reduced lighting requires clean waters, real clean waters... and also to support the view you brought up :

.... There are more to this than just light photoperiod

enlightened? did i ruffle ur feathers somewhere there?

[scarab]

Enlightened now. Was a little worried about what 'super clean' means, maybe end up have to do a lot more work on the tank.......

Respect your views, I just post my views. No who is right or wrong. Feathers were ruffled but now smoothen back already. Always want to post informative views so appreciate if no mention of who has better 'credentials' or blah blah blah. that don't matter here. In the forum, everyone post as equals.

In your case of super clean, does it mean good water parameters, good skimming or some sort of thing like that.

[RAV-65]

madmac,

I must say that in my short time here in SRC, scarab has always been someone ever willing to share his experience and knowledge, even as I'm still a newbie when it comes to SPS, he has been tolerant of me as I've asked him one too many novice questions.

I must say that I've always paid attention to the posts he contributed here as it normally carries much information and knowledge and as busy as his own tank and life may be, he has taken the time to share his views generously.

As a third party reading this series of posts, I do get the impression that it is as if you're trying to indicate that Scarab has been throwing some rank or something to a similar extent.

However, it has been cleared up before matters go out of hand through ur explanation of your real intention. Once again, the emotionless aspect of a discussion forum has exposed its ugly head. Den again, let's all remind ourselves that as we are jamming away at your keyboards, dat it's not how we feel, but sometimes also how other viewers might comprehend our msg.

Juz my $0.02...

[Reefaholic]

Hmm.. interesting.

'Intensity'? how to judge that?

'Super clean' tank? how clean is super clean?

Well.. in conclusion. none can compare that the natural sunlight. And 2 hours, i dont think it works, as our tank is not super clean and not as intensified as the SUN. I wouldnt want to risk losing colours just for 2 hours duration of MH photoperiod.

Just to mention a case, I normally run my 400watter under 6hrs. all my sps colours change and turned to brown even with NO3 and PO4 measured zero. But after adjusting to 10hrs, the colours not only recover to the norm but quite intensed. I realised that when i adjust to 8hrs. Now back to 10hrs.

Again, this also depends on many parameters and also the 'zoos' that we are talking about.

Just my thought.

[AlfaRomeo]

Bomber's tank is running BB with massive amounts of flow and very wet skimming. Also, his LRs are cooked ensuring no contribution to NO3 and PO4 levels. I think he is running UV as well if Im not mistaken. Bioload is also very very minimal.

All of the above will lend itself to conditions being 'super clean' which is not easily attainable by us with sandbed and 'raw' rocks that were not cooked and also a relatively high bioload. with Angels/Tangs etc etc.

Just my observations on why he is able to run his tank with 2hrs of Mhs and the rest of the photoperiod using VHOs only.

For the rest of us SPS keepers, I think we can cut down from the 10 hour 'Standard' MH photoperiod but it will not even touch 6 hours before we see the corals turning brown. 6-8 hours would be a relatively good average IMHO.

Scarab mentioned the best way is by trail and error of reduing the MHs but if we like to err on the safe side and blast the MHs for 10-12 hours, then by all means. A good indication of 'overexposure' is very light and pale colors instead of the darker richer colors that Bomber was aiming for. Well, whatever rocks your boat I say.

My 2cents

[madmac]

In your case of super clean, does it mean good water parameters, good skimming or some sort of thing like that.

Back to super clean question, its obvious Alpha knows what it means, as I know what he meant too, but to describe it may not be easy. Lets see if I can illustrate how super clean Bomber's tank is. his tank measures 10 ft length, 3 ft tall, not sure abt the width... he cleans his tank walls off every 3 months once and only then to get rid of coraline algae. He doesn't see plant algae on his tank walls at all. As far as parameters are concern, he's pretty relax about it.. I think he keeps his Ca at abt 330 using CaCo3, dkh at 7 to 9, using baking soda.. and thats all. Skimming is done wet as Alpha says, to rid out phyto and bacteria flock, green and brown respectively... he doesn't feed the corals but uses UV to indirect feed the corals... some terms are quite complex to explain here. Does not employ carbon and don't use PO4 absorbers, no macro algae ... so clean you can see thru' 10 feet of length with no visibility loss

i'm on to BB as you know, and I can see the detritus that comes out every 12 hrs, mornings and when I return from work... let me say, that you'll be surprised at the amt. syphoned out each time, its a lot, like 2 chinese soup spoons full per syphon... my tank has nvr been so clean before, yet still got detritus every day.

Reefaholic: wif respect to your views, pls read the first few pages of that link some of the qs you asked is answered there.

[scarab]

I think with our tank size and stocking level, it will be very difficult to achieve what Bomber is doing. His is a 10 feet tank and I'm sure his bioload is super low. I've also seen his SPS stocking, very minimal I say. Well one man's meat is another man's poison. It boils down to the look you want.

You have any idea how to indirectly feed corals using UV??? This one I really interested to know. This will be like feeding without putting food in the water.

[xpert1974]

Scarab mentioned the best way is by trail and error of reduing the MHs but if we like to err on the safe side and blast the MHs for 10-12 hours, then by all means. A good indication of 'overexposure' is very light and pale colors instead of the darker richer colors that Bomber was aiming for. Well, whatever rocks your boat I say.

I have this sps with intense red tips when first bought. Those tips are now light pink (1 month later) under 250w XM MH. I have another brownish sps which went also pinkish under the same placement levels as the first sps mentioned. MH photoperiod is 8hrs.

Is that an indication that these 2 sps are over exposed to much light?

[surfedelic]

I think with our tank size and stocking level, it will be very difficult to achieve what Bomber is doing. His is a 10 feet tank and I'm sure his bioload is super low. I've also seen his SPS stocking, very minimal I say. Well one man's meat is another man's poison. It boils down to the look you want.

You have any idea how to indirectly feed corals using UV???      This one I really interested to know. This will be like feeding without putting food in the water.

If you go to some of the European site there are some french using DE lighting without the shield ...not sure if this is what bomber is doing.

I am still exploring too .. which explain why MH users can bring out stronger color better than T5 becasue MH emits UV whereas T5 does not.

[AlfaRomeo]

I have this sps with intense red tips when first bought. Those tips are now light pink (1 month later) under 250w XM MH. I have another brownish sps which went also pinkish under the same placement levels as the first sps mentioned. MH photoperiod is 8hrs.

Is that an indication that these 2 sps are over exposed to much light?

What species of Acro is the one with red tips? How high up the tank issit? Directly under the 250w?

[madmac]

yes, I do... it was answered in several threads in RC... if you search, UV and Bomber, you'll get a few postings where he answers them... thing is he nvr ans them directly... well he has, but it so curt that if you want more, you'll hv to do ur own rsch on the topic.. but its there in RC.

First thing first... do you understand that SPS is carbon limiting, if you do, you'll understand how this UV thing feeds corals... if you don't then you'll hv to do some reading on. I don't think I can explain adequately to your satisfaction. Maybe someone else here can better expain.... if no one does, then I'll do it.

[scarab]

If you go to some of the European site there are some french using DE lighting without the shield ...not sure if this is what bomber is doing.

I am still exploring too .. which explain why MH users can bring out stronger color better than T5 becasue MH emits UV whereas T5 does not.

DE without UV shielding? That's interesting coz a little UV does help in the colouration of the SPS. Just gotta be careful if you remove the UV shield coz there is no intermediate shielding range in between. It's either with UV shield or without. Maybe a glass with various UV shielding effect might help coz over exposure to UV has irretrievable consequences to your SPS.

[madmac]

If you go to some of the European site there are some french using DE lighting without the shield ...not sure if this is what bomber is doing.

I am still exploring too .. which explain why MH users can bring out stronger color better than T5 becasue MH emits UV whereas T5 does not.

I think you misunderstood, scarab's statement about UV, ... the UV he was refering to (i hope) is the UV-C, sterilization thinggy, where you hookup in-line to zap bacteria, water-algae, water-borne diseases... its purpose is to kill those pathogens, and 'clean' the water column... if you remove the glass UV shield of the MH, you are gonna burn the SPS.. literally speaking, sun-burn them, they will trun brown, in a matter of hours, the skin will peel away, and they RTN... pls don't try that... cause I did and thats what happened.