SRC Member lvcap Posted October 5, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 5, 2004 hey roidan.. dint realise the H&S skimmers also kind of tapered... just saw the pix u posted in pasar malam... i dint realise it was tapered when i used it last yr... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roidan Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 The taper is actually a very important part in translating the bubbles very smoothly from the bigger chamber to the smaller tube up the cup...otherwise...some bubbles will be LOST IN TRANSLATION Advanced Aquarist (March05) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member planetg Posted October 5, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 5, 2004 kudos to bro ray for his comparison. i didn't bother to understand the physics behind the volume calculation and the graphs he has painfully assembled but once he brought the dodge viper and s2000 into comparison, i sort of see a clearer picture!!! haha. A note to all beckett skimmer owners or wanna-buys. NOT ALL becketts are well designed!!! yes, even a simple counter-current skimmer can produce good foam but u gotta see those becketts giving u the real good stuff. there's always another level when it comes to design. pick the RIGHT designer hor! make sure your money's worth. no disrespect to some designers here in SRC or even in RC, some of the performances i've seen in pictures posted here are disappointing. well perhaps, it's a case of diff bioload and water chemistry..... or is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roidan Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 yeah...to pay about $16,000 for those german "aeronautical engineers' to make a 2over metre tall bubbleking.... i rather chance my luck with $2k with some local designers....after all, when you look pass all the nitty gritty....the biggest and tallest skimmer always have an advantage. Amount of bubbles that can be packed inside the chamber and the reaction time simply by rising 2m is definitely hard to match Advanced Aquarist (March05) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member patrick123 Posted October 5, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 5, 2004 I agree that skimmer is not like car. A car you will drive around and show it off, so a Merc S500 makes a difference from a Honda . Unfortunately, a skimmer is a skimmer. If 2 skimmer have almost equal performance and one is 10 times more expensive then the other one. Guess which one will most people choose. Unless the skimmer can be double up as a car too and you can drive it around and show it off...hey, I'm driving a RD. I think the manufacturer need to take these feedback seriously and make a decision whether they want to sell at high price in niche market, or more affordable price to the general public. The decision is theirs....but the buyers always have a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roidan Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 yeah...of coz there is a prestige to owning a RD or bubbleking...but then....if comparing 2m tall skimmers...i see no point spending $16k on a bubbleking when i can get a reasonably sound beckett for $2k odd... the additional $14k...wow....there are many other ways to use that cash...lol i actually set aside $4-$5k personal max for this last skimmer project which will last me to the end of my hobby days or even my days frankly i was looking at the external 400 bubbleking when there was a introductory price during the first order....but then i realised that i really wanted to go for volume that was humanly possible in my place and yet have the option to scale down the skimmer.... ie. in fact if i take out the middle section and mate just the top and bottom together...it's a skimmer on its own...and probably will make do with a smaller pump.. modularity and flexibility was the key to the design...it's probably a transformer skimmer from the ways i can change the use of the skimmer..but that of coz i am at no liberty to divulge further because it encompasses alot of hard work, research and most importantly, practical hands-on knowledge in the field of skimmer fabrication and observation for those who are lost and want to get into today's discussion..here is the link to get you to the earlier few pages http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.php?...c=18728&st=1425 Advanced Aquarist (March05) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member sugi Posted October 6, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 6, 2004 Roidan, Weileong, I am trying to verify on the MX100 wattage with the factory. Once they reply to me, I will let you know. Seems this data on the pump is quite true. When I analyse the MD-100RM series, the details specs also put a puzzle rating. For 50Hz: Input: 245w output:260w For 60Hz: Input: 365w output:265w Since this is applied to the older model MD series, mostlikely MX 100 series wattage also the same. At 50Hz: Input: 240w output:260w Hope they can explain to me on these rating. Bro Roidan, I have received a confirmation from Iwaki. MX100 is more efficient than MX70. The input wattage printed is true. At 50Hz: Input: 240w output:260w With the same wattage input, MX100 deliver additional 1200L/hour more than MX70. But price is much more expensive. You can put your mind at ease 2 x MX100 = 480W only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weileong Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Weileong's 4ft tank Part I Weileong's 4ft tank Part II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member Maxima Posted October 6, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 6, 2004 With reference to a lto of argurement here my statement earlier refers to 1. This is not about BK vs Beckett cost. And referring to a BK sized the height of your Beckett. It will probably skim 4 unit of 6ft tank of your size. We are talking about thru-put, not size here. I don't get the idea. Did I mention size competition. Probably u can get a Marco that is twice the size of your DIY at the same price BTW u can get a BK size the same with 1 MX100 for $3000+/- A $16K BK is equal to 6 Iwaki MX100 Beckett 2. When we come to Beckett, we don't talk about power consumption. Referring to Alvy statement of "produces a very stable foam head..minimal turbulence". I thought that is the result of a weak pump. Rodian is using 2 x MX100, that would be sufficient. Unless the Skimmer is design way too huge, too tall, too....whatever. So the pumping sizing is not match to the funnel height + diameter. I understand that in SIngapore most Beckett user run undersize pumps. I think when u size it right, with MX100 reputable pressure rating turbulence is not an issue. Else what's the point of using Beckett w pressure rated pumps. I believe this a bigger issue with Needle wheel design. There has been a debate on at RC. Both Deltec & BK + Beckett is in there, Lots of Scientific Theory. U will understand what I mean after u take a read. If u overly size the chamber height & size, try to split a single MX100 output to 2 beckett nozzle and try to savage it by using a very small funnel diameter. Isn't such a design wasting material coming back to square one? My point here is if you have 4 beckett nozzle and you want a damn tall chamber, run it with 4 iwaki. If you want to save cost, trying to split the 2 iwaki to 4 nozzle and still want big form factor, I think u want wasting material cost right?? Don't believe me? Measure your air intake+ water of 2 nozzle to one MX100 vs 1 nozzle to 1 MX100. The numbers is the proof. In theory(99%) yr air intake of 2 nozzle to 1 mx100 will be able to generate more air intake but will cut down on water intake. Anyway this is controllable. NET-NET is the same, as more air intake equal less water. So why waste the money? I'm pointing out this because u state saving of DIY. I'm trying to indirectly TELL you since you out to have saving, why not save more with same performance factor? Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member AlfaRomeo Posted October 6, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 6, 2004 Bro Roidan, I have received a confirmation from Iwaki. MX100 is more efficient than MX70. The input wattage printed is true. At 50Hz: Input: 240w output:260w With the same wattage input, MX100 deliver additional 1200L/hour more than MX70. But price is much more expensive. You can put your mind at ease 2 x MX100 = 480W only. Sugi, if this is true... then its a miracle and the energy conservation theory goes out the window... output power can be greater than input? hmmm... interesting to say the least.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member planetg Posted October 6, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 6, 2004 oh i see the light! it's based on theory! cool!!! i've no hands-on tweaking and fondling experience with a bubble king so i can definitely not say anything abt it. or can i assume some things also.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roidan Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 max.... that's why there is nothing wrong with the bubbleking at all...the bottomline is the cost price..... but if a beckett skimmer cost only 10-20% of a bubbleking does it mean that a beckett skimmer can offer only 10-20% for a bubleking's performance? in short....performance/price....the beckett wins hands down i know it is kinda unfair to judge beckett skimmers vs German made bubblekings...it's like comparing apples to pears...but both apples and pears are fruits and good for health(reef) ..so either one reefers choose...it's beneficial no doubt with either choice In any case, there will never be an end to the beckett vs needlewheel discussion.....one can choose to climb the European French Alps or the American Grand Canyon...both will give you a high while you are at the summit... if climbing the American Grand Canyon cost only 10%-20% of climbing the French Alps....i rather explore the American Grand Canyon to me...skimmer dynamics is simple......i want as large a volume of skimmer as i possibly can house in my place and squeeze as much bubble density as possible in that large volume.... large volume, super high bubble density, super long reaction time with swirling and rising more than 2meteres............a bubble king with this in consideration will reach $16k like i said...so it cuts down large volume....makes up for super high bubble density....and a reasonable reaction time with their 50-70cm high 12inch wide chambers...and electrical efficient pumps... to me...what i see before me is a $2k Quattro vs a $16k bubbleking of the same size....both 2over meters tall...both totally packed and saturated with bubbles in the chambers....just one running higher powered pumps and the other lower powered pumps... and i figured it will take years to decades to make up the difference in cost.... Advanced Aquarist (March05) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member patrick123 Posted October 6, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 6, 2004 Sugi, if this is true... then its a miracle and the energy conservation theory goes out the window... output power can be greater than input? hmmm... interesting to say the least.. May be the MX100 is nuclear powered. hehehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roidan Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 May be the MX100 is nuclear powered. hehehehe lol... maybe mx100 use exhaust..oops..output flow to spin the impeller faster ... effects of turbocharging...lol kidding man....seriously dunno how they manage to do it... but if the factory confirmed it...means the japanese engineers must have something up their sleeves in the MX100 power input is 240...but their power output means EFFECTIVE power output...ie....u can feed the same amount of petrol to a VTEC and non VTEC engine...same engine size....but the VTEC one has a higher effective output power than the nonVTEC... yeah!!! i got VTEC iwaki MX100s Advanced Aquarist (March05) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member AlfaRomeo Posted October 6, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 6, 2004 But can your VTEC engine produces more power than it consumes? Granted it will produce more power than a non-vtec engine but it cannot produce more effective power than it consumes... even turbocharging/supercharging your VTEC engine will not produce more power than it consumes... Lets say 1L of 98-octane petrol has a potential to give 600KW of power if 100% converted to energy to move the car without loses from heat/sound/vibration/etc etc ... can the engine produce 650W? I dunt think so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roidan Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 oh yeah..for those who dunno me or maxima.... these are just friendly constructive discussion with facts, figures and numbers wherever possible... in real life, maxima is my friendly neighbour across the TPE Advanced Aquarist (March05) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member Maxima Posted October 6, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 6, 2004 I cannot be aggressive lah ........... just constructive suggestions . Anyway is to benefit to the Beckett DIY reefers to take in these opinions. Anyway with 2 MX100 running, it will clean up any 6ft. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roidan Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 yeah yeah.... we can end the beckett/needlewheel discussion liao...enough said.... everyone is entitled to their views and opinions before and after reading the discussion perhaps we can now focus on the iwaki mx100 mystery Advanced Aquarist (March05) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roidan Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 yea alfa.... actually vtec engines do not engage vtec till the engine rpm reaches a certain range if i am not wrong....weileong please enlighten me...since u are a vtec driver...lol at the low to normal usage rpm range...the vtec engine consumes just about the same as the non-vtec ones....please correct me if i am wrong again weileong..hehehe well...i get your point that turbocharging end up using more fuel to get higher output..that i agree....in fact...turbocharging is the way to forcefeed the engine with more air and fuel than usual to get that high performance.. oh well...seriously i do not know why the 240input and 260output is exclusively for running under 50Hz condiiton..whereas the same mx100 running at 60Hz uses 375Winput for 260W output Advanced Aquarist (March05) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member AlfaRomeo Posted October 6, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 6, 2004 Maybe the engineers in Japan that measured the input/output of the iwaki pump dunt know how to do the conversion from japanese number to english properly? hehehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weileong Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 It cannot be 100% efficient let alone near to 100% because there is heat produced and this heat must come from the input hence it will definately be lower than 100% efficient. You see that the current drawn is 1.58A so taking the power factor as 0.853 as calculated from the 60hz specs we should be talking abt 1.58*240*0.853 = 323.5watts. Weileong's 4ft tank Part I Weileong's 4ft tank Part II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roidan Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 lol.... yeah lor..that's what i use to derive also.. P=VI i told myself it's 350W before i bought them...... well....dun care 250 or 350 or 450 lah.. this hobby was never meant to save money..... this hobby was meant to help obese wallets slim down and ultimately also help us slim down as no more money eat a decent meal Advanced Aquarist (March05) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC Member dradttg Posted October 6, 2004 SRC Member Share Posted October 6, 2004 Aiya....all these Watt, theory, formula....making me blur lah. I want to see fishes...Tower in action.... Did you get a new camera?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roidan Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 Aiya....all these Watt, theory, formula....making me blur lah. I want to see fishes...Tower in action.... Did you get a new camera?? yeah lor..dun let all this techno jingle spoil the fun... tower not in action yet..will post when in action... haven't yet...still deciding...lol...perhaps change the camera after i come back from a trip to japan in december... well...in that case maybe i should pay the Japanese Iwaki engineers a visit Advanced Aquarist (March05) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weileong Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Too lazy so just cut-n-paste a URL, those interested can go read abt it With VTEC you achiever good fuel consumption with high output one engine http://webservernt.d2g.com:81/HONDA/How%20Vtec%20Works.htm Weileong's 4ft tank Part I Weileong's 4ft tank Part II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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