How will it affect the color of SPS if p04 = 0

[alanseah]

Hi Guy,

We all know high p04 will have brown sps but what about p04 free?

I have been wondering because my tank have been p04 free.. base on hanna result show zero. How will it affect the color of sps???

Will sps color up faster or go dull instead??

Note when I say p04 free is base on true result shown by hanna and not those result base on salifert hor.. Salifert p04 result even colorless is around p04 0.1 plus one...

So any ppls got idea or read some where..???

[alanseah]

anyone..??

[35Cents]

Does the Hanna PO4 meter measure ortho-phosphates or total- phosphates? A slight difference between the both but in terms of low range resutls as in 0.01 ppm, there are significant differences.

[weileong]

Hanna PO4 meter is no difference from the salifert PO4 test kit as both uses reagent. The main difference is at low PO4 concentration the hanna could detect the difference while with the salifert PO4 it is usually difficult as we have problems seeing the very light blue shade.

IMHO at levels below 0.04ppm the sample on the hanna test tube appears colourless to my eyes but the hanna is able to read the color.

So hanna PO4 meter only test for inorganic PO4. This is a little as this thread concerns SPS coloration.

Anyway since we're at it and you mentioned it, care to share we us what are the difference? Any method that test for organic PO4 usually involves breaking it down into inorganic PO4 hence total-PO4.

[35Cents]

Hi Weileong,

To make long story short, Total PO4 = inorganic PO4 (Pi)+ organic PO4 (Po).

Po gives Pi over time.

What was measured in aquariums is usually Pi. Po more difficult to measure as most time it's bound to other elements till it becomes Pi when kena break down by bacteria.

Oops off topic.....

Alan, a link for read on PO4:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2002/chem.htm

[alanseah]

Hi Weileong,

To make long story short, Total PO4 = inorganic PO4 (Pi)+ organic PO4 (Po).

Po gives Pi over time.

What was measured in aquariums is usually Pi. Po more difficult to measure as most time it's bound to other elements till it becomes Pi when kena break down by bacteria.

Oops off topic.....

Alan, a link for read on PO4:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2002/chem.htm

It's ok no problem.. so long it's informative and gd learning... it's never out of topic..

the only out of topic to me is when u talk of nothing reef related..

Anyway.. I was wondering.. since like you say "Po more difficult to measure as most time it's bound to other elements till it becomes Pi when kena break down by bacteria."

And still after long period of time I still cant meause Pi wont that also mean I dont have Po also..?

Am I right to assume that? unless u tell me Po will never break down to Pi or will take super long be4 it become Pi else what I theory would be able to answer for the Po measurement also.

[35Cents]

Hi Alan, its not very possible to get zero Organic PO4 (Po) cos many things contain this element.... food, additives....even salt mix in the tinyness quantity.

If you are getting zero inorganic PO4 (Pi) even for a long time does not means that there are no Po... cos maybe once it's broken down to Pi, it get absorbed by organism, algae, rowas and other filters. Breaking from Po to Pi I dont know how long, but in my humble experience with water, it will depend on the amount of oxidation in the water.... in general terms... hours.

IMO, PO4 relates to algae more than it relates to the colouration of corals....unless of course in large quantity of PO4 than algae grows on corals inhibiting growth etc. Even in the sea there are small traces of PO4 as phosphorus is one of the trace element. Since you are getting zero Pi, PO4 (as a whole) will not be the culprit if you are not getting sps to colour up.

If these PO4 issue is bothering you that much, you can pay for total PO4, Pi and Po tests at accredited labs. Each parameter test will cost ard S$40-S$80 depending on the type of technology.... in this area, Weileong will be more expert to advise.

But really lah... dun waste the money, like that super hardcore liao.

[alanseah]

Hi Alan, its not very possible to get zero Organic PO4 (Po) cos many things contain this element.... food, additives....even salt mix in the tinyness quantity.

If you are getting zero inorganic PO4 (Pi) even for a long time does not means that there are no Po... cos maybe once it's broken down to Pi, it get absorbed by organism, algae, rowas and other filters. Breaking from Po to Pi I dont know how long, but in my humble experience with water, it will depend on the amount of oxidation in the water.... in general terms... hours.

IMO, PO4 relates to algae more than it relates to the colouration of corals....unless of course in large quantity of PO4 than algae grows on corals inhibiting growth etc. Even in the sea there are small traces of PO4 as phosphorus is one of the trace element. Since you are getting zero Pi, PO4 (as a whole) will not be the culprit if you are not getting sps to colour up.

If these PO4 issue is bothering you that much, you can pay for total PO4, Pi and Po tests at accredited labs. Each parameter test will cost ard S$40-S$80 depending on the type of technology.... in this area, Weileong will be more expert to advise.

But really lah... dun waste the money, like that super hardcore liao.

well maybe you did not understand....

yes of coz we know confirm no sure thing as no p04.. but what I mean is at least for part that afford the sps is free...

anyway what i want to know is will Pi zero afford coloring of sps.... in whatever way..or maybe result in side effect...

my color is there just that I dont get the kind of color I want yet.. so asking this hope anyone here with any knowledge can help..

[iantoh]

hi alan,

i agree with 35cents. i think its impossible that your tank's entirely devoid of bioavailable PO4. that is, if you do feed your tanks anything at all, because almost anything you might feed tank will contain quantities of PO4, and this food, after it becomes shit, even in a tank with super flow that breaks up the detritus for skimming will still have some PO4 break down before it can be skimmed. thing is, the zooallanthae in your sps, and micro and macro algaes will very quickly utilise this PO4, thus likely leading to your zero readings on the meter.

if your corals are growing, then thats probably more evidence of bioavailable PO4, as it likely shows that the zooallanthae within your coral tissues have been able to assimilate PO4 which is a necessary ingredient for photosynthesis. i know studies have shown that sps can grow without light or photosynthesis if they are fed in excess of their carbon budget through particulate feedings, but i think thats probably impossible in our normal tanks so...

still, think your situation is one that most of us will envy!!! (me definitely included) its a perfect condition i think!

... getting back to your question of how PO4 levels affect colouration, liek you said, high PO4 usually leads to overproduction of zoox and the consequent browning. so maybe with less PO4, if you take that less PO4 will mean less zoox population in your sps (PO4 limited), then maybe the colours will be better? not sure man, but just thinking out my thoughts here. what do you think? were you thinking along the same lines or had another idea?

[alanseah]

well iantoh something like that because of alot lesser zoox in your sps which thus bring out the color.. and of coz provide all the other factor is there and correct also.

[decentkid]

colour of sps are from pigments of the coral tissue acting as photoprotection for the zooxanthella so as to prevent poisoning from toxic oxygen produced from the zooxanthella and also photobleaching of zooxanthella...did some research and i cant find anything that suggest a higher uptake of phosphate by plants as compared to other organisms....so i am thinking that excess phosphate might be taken up the zooxanthella as they have a higher turnover rate or rather a higher reproductive rate than other organisms...corals can only take up a certain amount of phosphate a day...same goes to algae...

so my guess is low phosphate might indeed improve colouration of the sps...but having some phosphate is better then none..every single molecule of DNA has a phosphate group in there...every molecule of ATP has 3 molecules of phosphate..and ATP is the thing that gives us energy to move and our heart pumping...

just my 2 cents worth

[alanseah]

colour of sps are from pigments of the coral tissue acting as photoprotection for the zooxanthella so as to prevent poisoning from toxic oxygen produced from the zooxanthella and also photobleaching of zooxanthella...did some research and i cant find anything that suggest a higher uptake of phosphate by plants as compared to other organisms....so i am thinking that excess phosphate might be taken up the zooxanthella as they have a higher turnover rate or rather a higher reproductive rate than other organisms...corals can only take up a certain amount of phosphate a day...same goes to algae...

so my guess is low phosphate might indeed improve colouration of the sps...but having some phosphate is better then none..every single molecule of DNA has a phosphate group in there...every molecule of ATP has 3 molecules of phosphate..and ATP is the thing that gives us energy to move and our heart pumping...

just my 2 cents worth

yes decent kid.. but since every rule out the fact that there is no sure things as p04 free...

so there is always an amt of p04, so having zero Pi should be gd cause when the Po is convert to Pi, it will be taken up by the sps (not algae since I dont have any even on the LR) and yet I still cant get any value of Pi even when Po is converted.

Thus it assume that at this stage sps color should show up faster then in any condition and the color should be intense.

[35Cents]

yes decent kid.. but since every rule out the fact that there is no sure things as p04 free...

so there is always an amt of p04, so having zero Pi should be gd cause when the Po is convert to Pi, it will be taken up by the sps (not algae since I dont have any even on the LR) and yet I still cant get any value of Pi even when Po is converted.

Thus it assume that at this stage sps color should show up faster then in any condition and the color should be intense.

Morning Alan,

Theoritically yes, undetectable PO4 levels (Pi, Po or even TPO4) should create an environment for sps to colour up faster and better.

But as I had said, if this factor is not a problem as we all here had agreed, perhaps you should look into other factors? Even Fengshui... seriously.

[madmac]

Thus it assume that at this stage sps color should show up faster then in any condition and the color should be intense.

c'mon lah... stop the teasing and prove it man... show us some pics or I call you bluff.

[alanseah]

c'mon lah... stop the teasing and prove it man... show us some pics or I call you bluff.

I have already post this pic many months back lor...

unless i know how to heck the hanna so I cant make it show the figure I want. So there is no cheaping in this photo.

And why must I lie? I dont earn anything and it's my tank that I will be seeing after all not other so why should I lie to myself in the 1st place.

Lastly it's not that I dont want to show my sps, I cant cause I cant take any pic under purely 3 x 250W 6500 kevin saki. All the photo I try to take the color are all wash out the whole dam photo is yellow in color only.

My T5 is still on the way, so unless I have my T5 hook up else photo taking is out of question one.

[madmac]

No lah... not a pic of the hanna result.. I'm sure thats correct... the corals is what I meant.

[edit]

... ok we're a patient lot.

the PO4 thing is driving me nuts, personally, I think its like chasing the wind, and not productive... => if you can't enjoy your corals at whatever PO4 levels you constantly have then its not worth doing it. The levels mentioned for "success", i.e. <0.03 is difficult, its in 1 hundredth level, and each point different points to at least a 100% change

Edited September 1, 2005 by madmac

[weileong]

When my hanna was giving 0.00 results, my SPS colors were getting lighter and lighter up to the point that I feel the colors were getting way too light.

It was not until I increased feedings, keep the tank more dirty and increased dosage of AAHC. With that the PO4 are now at 0.01 and the colors are more intense now.

So we should keep the PO4 low but not too low. Too low then SPS lost colors and if too high then you get dark tissues.

[minsmarine]

Weileong

It is I noticed also, when I was dosing sugar. It was almost winthin 24hrs, all my SPSs show stress and their color were too light to be believe, almost like bleaching.

So I agree with u , not to 0 PO4 but as low as we could.

[RAV-65]

I never tried sugar before, but I thought it was to remove no3... Did I get it wrong?? It removes po4??

[alanseah]

I never tried sugar before, but I thought it was to remove no3... Did I get it wrong?? It removes po4??

well his problem is not due to low in p04 but more of change in param in the water which stress the sps so much that it stn/rtn...

[RAV-65]

well his problem is not due to low in p04 but more of change in param in the water which stress the sps so much that it stn/rtn...

Okay... not the answer I was expecting... so can someone answer me? The sugar removes no3 or po4??

[alanseah]

Okay... not the answer I was expecting... so can someone answer me? The sugar removes no3 or po4??

well from what i know sugar should be reducing primary N03 only..

[RAV-65]

well from what i know sugar should be reducing primary N03 only..

Dats what I thought... how come now becomes remove po4??

[minsmarine]

suger not only remove NO2, NO3, PO4 it does remove your saltinity as well. If u don't believe try it.

[RAV-65]

suger not only remove NO2, NO3, PO4 it does remove your saltinity as well. If u don't believe try it.

more sugar, less salty mah...