how does canister become nitrate factory?

[Hecter]

can someone explain to me the above? say if there's carbon, ceramic rings, sponge and bioballs in the canister... how does it differ from a sump? i do see pple their sump also put ceramic rings, bioballs too ...

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

can someone explain to me the above? say if there's carbon, ceramic rings, sponge and bioballs in the canister... how does it differ from a sump? i do see pple their sump also put ceramic rings, bioballs too ...

Hi Hector ,

When the breakdown of Ammonia to nitrite and finally to nitrate, a canister filter doesn't allow the release of gas from the breakdown as there is no opening in an enclosed area like a canister. The sump other wise has alot of open areas for the gas to be released through openings. Take some time to look into a tank with a sump and you will realize the openings. Thats why it is better to have a sump in the long run then a canister

[euphoria]

Hi Hector ,

When the breakdown of Ammonia to nitrite and finally to nitrate, a canister filter doesn't allow the release of gas from the breakdown as there is no opening in an enclosed area like a canister. The sump other wise has alot of open areas for the gas to be released through openings. Take some time to look into a tank with a sump and you will realize the openings. Thats why it is better to have a sump in the long run then a canister

sorry..if i may ask...what gas are you talking about?

[Dispar_Anthias]

sorry..if i may ask...what gas are you talking about?

Think is nitrogen gas(correct me if i am wrong)

[jas_soh]

nitrogen + oxygen??

[terryansimon]

a canister is highly effective in converting NH4 to NO2 and to NO3. however it cannot convert NO3 to N2 simply because of the fact that it doesn't have the capability in doing so.

why so you may ask

it is because conversion of NO3 to N2 is a form of reduction in chemistry terms. this reduction takes place because of the presence of anaerobic bacteria. anaerobic basically means an environment with little oxygen, as compared to aerobic. therefore, these bacteria actually need very little O2 as compared to bacteria that converts NH4 and NO2. since the canister filter is designed in such a way that it is totally submerged with fast flowing water, an anaerobic environment cannot be created.

an anaerobic environment is normally created via a Deep Sand Bed or a DSB, or with Live Rocks that are big, huge and dense *so that it is anaerobic in the inner recesses of the rock itself*

that is why a canister filter is regarded as a nitrate factory. it does its job pretty well in reducing NH4 to NO2 and NO2 to NO3......but not from NO3 to N2. it doesn't matter about the gas being allowed to escape or not. just the environment, thats all. (=

[terryansimon]

and by the way, bioballs/bio rings and what not are known to be nitrate factories as well. irregardless of placement in sump or in canister.

or so I was told by quite a few reefers. I wouldn't know as my tank isn't here yet.

but thats just my five cents worth (=

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

a canister is highly effective in converting NH4 to NO2 and to NO3. however it cannot convert NO3 to N2 simply because of the fact that it doesn't have the capability in doing so.

why so you may ask

it is because conversion of NO3 to N2 is a form of reduction in chemistry terms. this reduction takes place because of the presence of anaerobic bacteria. anaerobic basically means an environment with little oxygen, as compared to aerobic. therefore, these bacteria actually need very little O2 as compared to bacteria that converts NH4 and NO2. since the canister filter is designed in such a way that it is totally submerged with fast flowing water, an anaerobic environment cannot be created.

an anaerobic environment is normally created via a Deep Sand Bed or a DSB, or with Live Rocks that are big, huge and dense *so that it is anaerobic in the inner recesses of the rock itself*

that is why a canister filter is regarded as a nitrate factory. it does its job pretty well in reducing NH4 to NO2 and NO2 to NO3......but not from NO3 to N2. it doesn't matter about the gas being allowed to escape or not. just the environment, thats all. (=

when ever theres a breakdown gas is produced be it in your reef system or on land. canisters have no way of releasing it's breakdown. Just one example of how we could contain our very own breakdown in our body by releasing......? I don't want to be gross here but thats just an example just imagine if one try's to contain it

[Matt06]

What terryansimon says is very true, if you really want to remove Nitrate, the cheaper way is to change water frequently, but in the long run, I suggest you to get a denitrator.

[Achilles Tang]

Well, to correct you, Acanthurus, if you are talking about gas release, you must be assuming that denitrification is happening in a canister, which is not usually the case.

Let me explain... to fully complete the nitrogen cycle... ie. processing of nitrates to nitrogen gas, anaerobic conditions for denitrifying bacteria to flourish must be present. In a canister, this is never created. The water flow through a canister is rich in oxygen, making it suitable for only aerobic bacteria which process ammonia to nitrites, and nitrites to nitrates. FULL STOP.

Terryandsimon said it right about why a canister filter is a nitrate factory. In fact, a sump can also be nitrate factory. Putting bioballs/biohume/coral chips in a highly aerobic area (in sump or overflow compartment or canister filter) will encourage the colonization of aerobic nitrifying bacteria on these surfaces and very effectively produce nitrates.

Dealing with nitrates is very seperate from dealing with ammonia and nitrites.

The difference between a sump and canister is that a sump has a much bigger space for placing equipment, releasing the effluent for calcium reactors, kalkwasser dosers, placing carbon, polyfilters, phosphate removers and is therefore SO much more convenient compared to a canister that you have to open it regularly to clean it vs something you can just reach out and remove, clean or add in?

Also a sump will never 'crash' as fast as a canister should power be cut off and rapid depletion of oxygen occurs ie. meaning that the aerobic bacteria dies. With the open spaces of a sump, oxygen diffusion is sufficient to maintain them longer. (Ever open a canister that has been allowed to 'sit' for a few days? ).

Also, a canister is very much like a closed loop... all the biofilm or oil film on the surface of the water gets sucked into a canister and probably reenters the water without being 'broken down' as would all the surface agitation that happens when water enters an overflow compartment, goes all the way down into a sump, enters a powerful pump (compared to a canister's) and goes back into the main tank itself. The water flow thru a canister is usually 'smoother'... in this aspect.

This is off the top of my head about a sump vs a canister. I'll add in more reasons later should it cross my mind.

AT

[terryansimon]

care to explain what is so gross about nitrogen? if it consist of 70% of the air we breath, I'm sure it has no detrimental effects on our body, let alone reef systems. and besides, even if its a sealed environment, N2 can be diffused out of the water body when it reaches the exposed area, simply because diffusion needs to happen down a concentration gradient...

but technically with that in hand, it should not diffuse out to the air as the air will always have a higher amount of N2 as compared to what you have in the water.

the long of the short of it as to why its a nitrate factory is what I just explained. I may be wrong, but like I said, that was what some reefers told me, including Jon of Coralfarm. and I doubt he's wrong. unless he's trying to cheat me, which I doubt he is.

not saying you are wrong too. but like I said. N2 isn't harmful to the body at all. N however is harmful, hence the excretion via the kidneys *breakdown of protein as it contains C, H, O and N elements*

[Achilles Tang]

Oh yeah.... a sump contains a LOT more water than a canister... making your overall tank a little more stable.

[Achilles Tang]

care to explain what is so gross about nitrogen? if it consist of 70% of the air we breath, I'm sure it has no detrimental effects on our body, let alone reef systems. and besides, even if its a sealed environment, N2 can be diffused out of the water body when it reaches the exposed area, simply because diffusion needs to happen down a concentration gradient...

but technically with that in hand, it should not diffuse out to the air as the air will always have a higher amount of N2 as compared to what you have in the water.

the long of the short of it as to why its a nitrate factory is what I just explained. I may be wrong, but like I said, that was what some reefers told me, including Jon of Coralfarm. and I doubt he's wrong. unless he's trying to cheat me, which I doubt he is.

not saying you are wrong too. but like I said. N2 isn't harmful to the body at all. N however is harmful, hence the excretion via the kidneys *breakdown of protein as it contains C, H, O and N elements*

LOL! Actually only divers fear nitrogen!

I had mild decompression sickness after a dive incident at Sipadan where I had to make two rescues (but I'll tell that later in my Sipdan Dive Report thread).. Let's just say that the nitrogen bubbles in my blood stream causes me joint pains for about 2 weeks.

AT

[terryansimon]

oh yes the bends.

now I forgot about that completely. silly me.

[joachimsim]

INstead of a Denitrinator...CAN USE TETRA NITRATE Minus seems to work for my planted tank keeps NO3 from rising always below 10ppm

doesn't seem to work so well in my marine..as I use a hang on filter...maybe not Anaerobic enough..

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

Well, to correct you, Acanthurus, if you are talking about gas release, you must be assuming that denitrification is happening in a canister, which is not usually the case.

Let me explain... to fully complete the nitrogen cycle... ie. processing of nitrates to nitrogen gas, anaerobic conditions for denitrifying bacteria to flourish must be present. In a canister, this is never created. The water flow through a canister is rich in oxygen, making it suitable for only aerobic bacteria which process ammonia to nitrites, and nitrites to nitrates. FULL STOP.

Terryandsimon said it right about why a canister filter is a nitrate factory. In fact, a sump can also be nitrate factory. Putting bioballs/biohume/coral chips in a highly aerobic area (in sump or overflow compartment or canister filter) will encourage the colonization of aerobic nitrifying bacteria on these surfaces and very effectively produce nitrates.

Dealing with nitrates is very seperate from dealing with ammonia and nitrites.

The difference between a sump and canister is that a sump has a much bigger space for placing equipment, releasing the effluent for calcium reactors, kalkwasser dosers, placing carbon, polyfilters, phosphate removers and is therefore SO much more convenient compared to a canister that you have to open it regularly to clean it vs something you can just reach out and remove, clean or add in?

Also a sump will never 'crash' as fast as a canister should power be cut off and rapid depletion of oxygen occurs ie. meaning that the aerobic bacteria dies. With the open spaces of a sump, oxygen diffusion is sufficient to maintain them longer. (Ever open a canister that has been allowed to 'sit' for a few days? ).

Also, a canister is very much like a closed loop... all the biofilm or oil film on the surface of the water gets sucked into a canister and probably reenters the water without being 'broken down' as would all the surface agitation that happens when water enters an overflow compartment, goes all the way down into a sump, enters a powerful pump (compared to a canister's) and goes back into the main tank itself. The water flow thru a canister is usually 'smoother'... in this aspect.

This is off the top of my head about a sump vs a canister. I'll add in more reasons later should it cross my mind.

AT

there you go as AT has said it.... I wasn't going to write all of that and make the explanation simple! so a sump is always more stable in the long term Let our experts do the talking

[shiok]

juz to confirm the canister or the hang-on filter is a mechanical filtering system right, it's for removing the physical waste and dsb, live rock n skimmer is to remove the bio-waste?

so how should we choose the mechanical filter? by amount of water it filter?

[Aspire]

INstead of a Denitrinator...CAN USE TETRA NITRATE Minus seems to work for my planted tank keeps NO3 from rising always below 10ppm

doesn't seem to work so well in my marine..as I use a hang on filter...maybe not Anaerobic enough..

I'ved tried Tetra nitrate minus.. Doesn't seem to show much reduction NO3. Perhaps in long term..

[pondfisher]

very interesting reading but can I conclude that for those of us using cannisters, the rise of nitrarte levels can then only effectively be curbed by regular changes of water or is there something else we can use be it some chemicals or "denitrator" as someone earlier mentioned? wat is that anyone care to post a picture of this?

Thxx.

[Aspire]

As mention above, Tetra Nitrate Minus, it's small little white pallets which suppose put in between layers of sand bed to slowly dissolve over a period of time.

[MalaysiaBoleh]

a cannister filter is efficient in CONVERTING ammonia and nitrite to nitrate. it doesn't 'CREATE' nitrates. And ammonia and nitrite is more toxic to fishes so isn't it good to have something efficient in breaking down ammonia and nitrites fast? issit better to have avg level NH3+ avg level No2+ avg level No3 or just little or no NH3 and N03 and acceptable N03?

Given that cannisters are efficient in 'producing' N02, can't we have a DSB to eliminate high N03 this problem?

[terryansimon]

yes, you can use a DSB to remove NO3 present in the water.

however to have the space meant for a DSB, would mean that you wouldn't need a canister filter anymore as you'd probably be using a sump or a very huge tank with enough surface area for the deep sea bed. (=

[terryansimon]

very interesting reading but can I conclude that for those of us using cannisters, the rise of nitrarte levels can then only effectively be curbed by regular changes of water or is there something else we can use be it some chemicals or "denitrator" as someone earlier mentioned? wat is that anyone care to post a picture of this?

Thxx.

denitrators are just...mini-sumps which has a lot of passages/chambers for water to flow through, so that the bacteria can react on it and remove the nitrates by reducing it.

for a proper description, please go to EAquanature.com and look for denitrators in the online store.

[Achilles Tang]

Msiaboleh... yes.... you can even mix and match a wet/dry filter with a DSB... as the DSB will deal with the nitrates that a wet/dry produces. The wet/dry will efficiently deal with ammonia/nitrites efficiently.

Wet/dry and other aerobic filter systems are more for FO tanks.

A reef tank with ample LR and a properly setup DSB will deal with both nitrites and nitrates.

The danger is that newbies will usually setup a wet/dry with bioballs as advised by LFS and that will keep things habitable for their overstocked tanks in terms of dealing with toxic ammonia/nitrites and then they panic when nitrate levels start to skyrocket.

[Hecter]

ok.. interesting..

how does it consider to be oxygen rich area and low oxygen area?

from what i understand, water flowing into the canister is oxygen rich, how come water to sump not meh?