Suggestion Needed :)

[woonming]

Hiya Pls Feel Free to SUggest

For a 4ft by 2ft by 2ft tank

Equipments i need

which model and brand of skimers

and PH thank u

woonming

[clowntrigger]

I think you will need to name your budget, else you will see lots of equipment with high prices being recomended. For example

I would recomended H&S skimmer, get the one that handle 800l, the cost is $850..... See what I meant

For Power Head, go for Aquabee or Aquaclear.....

[Morgan]

To addon

Tunze stream 2 units + controller for water circulation.

[woonming]

faint ! plssss call 9 9...5 ...

850 !

i finish most of my budget after the tank plus cabint

not to say i wonder LR and sand will cost plus lighting

i think for fish i got to go catch from bedok jetty liao

woonming

[wolfie]

leck ar...

Slowly setup... Dun gan cheong...

[kelstorm]

faint ! plssss call 9 9...5 ...

850 !

i finish most of my budget after the tank plus cabint

not to say i wonder LR and sand will cost plus lighting

i think for fish i got to go catch from bedok jetty liao

woonming

if u can't afford those high end one.. get a lower end ones first and then slowly upgrade.. get the essential stuff first.. fishes and livestock can wait.. most impt is to do it right the first time.

[Achilles Tang]

Well.... I would recommend that you hold on to your purchases until you get the best equipment you can get to start off right.

Dun buy underpowered/uncapable stuff coz you end up wasting money and also losing livestock which will appreciate better conditions brought by better equipment. Patience and discipline is important.

Trust me... look at the number of equipment being sold off due to 'upgrading'... you lose a lot of money trying to get rid of stuff which you shouldn't have compromised and bought instead.

I suggest you prioritize your equipment accordingly to importance...

From most important to lesser importance:

1. Skimmer

2. Lights

3. Water circulation

Consider this advice again. My 2 cents.

[Wei]

Hi woonming,

you can buy the rulwal(i think) from italy. Also using needle wheel. Definately suits yr budget & have seen it in action. Comparable to a H&S. Bubble form is as fine as H&S. Need some tuning but once set will work as gd as a H&S. as i told u before, skimmer is not a must have in order to have a successful setup.

You can go skimless first as cycling period, u no need any skimmer. Purely let the system stablise by itself. U can use fan instead of chiller first. Try to source for 2nd hand chiller as it is a lot cheaper. Just get the sand & LR to seed everything. Wait till you got the money for other equipment, just let yr tank cycle & the tiny organisms & inverts to grow. With this alone, its already very interesting to keep u occupy.

U can also take this chance to let the coralline grow on yr rocks by dosing more calcium & raise the dkH.

Just take this as a chance for yr tank to lay a stronger foundation against those unwanted algaes.

Wei

[woonming]

thanks AT and all the rest

noded point taken

so what is the skimmer u guys could recomend me

as my budget left after getting a 4 by 2 by 2 10mm tank with solid ply wood mix with a little marine ply wood , plus a sump tank 2feet and a external overflow comparment left would be bearly $1100 left

excluding LR & sand (planning to go for a 3 to 4 inch DSB)

and a skimmer and a pump to pump water back up to the main tanks

maybe wei DIY skilmmer would be good

woonming

thanks for more post for advise

[Achilles Tang]

as i told u before, skimmer is not a must have in order to have a successful setup.

I strongly disagree.

Unless you are really an advanced aquarist, know what you are doing and want to go skimmerless... you have to be a very disciplined one.... eg. very little livestock, light bioload, light feeding, good & established biological setup, frequent water changes!

For newcomers to a hobby.... it's advocating suicide because you want to make sure that he gets the best water quality possible.... and without one, he will be relying on guesswork... when the first episode of cyano, nuisance algae, overfeeding pollution, overstocking, nitrates & phosphates shooting thru the roof, livestock deaths etc happens... and he don't know how to control it without that 'safety net' against a newbie's potential lack of discipline, bad practices, overfeeding/stocking etc... which a PS is, if you can call it that... but IMO, it's not just merely a safety net.

A PS is a VITAL component for maintaining good water quality. It's something you shouldn't compromise on.

Just to let you in on this 'skimmerless' trend collapsing. There are a few skimmerless gurus in RC with great-looking tanks for years finally breaking down and installing PS in their systems because they notice their tanks taking a turn for the worse inspite of all their good husbandry skills. Once they got a PS, their tanks improved.

If you don't believe me... logically... if a PS can skim out a cup of dark, dirty, smelly skimmate from your water.... why would you think your water is the same with it inside?

My 2 cents and my experience... past and present ie. My excellent H&S Euroreef skimmer is now too undersize for my new tank... it's comparable to getting a cheap airstone skimmer for a 2/3 ft small tank.... no offense to those that use them. It's a matter of having the right equipment to do the right job.... and doing it to its very best.

[Tanzy]

Ja wohl! Skimmerless system is not to be attempted by beginners. You'll require a large macroalgae refugium. If I am not wrong, Eric Bourneman's skimmerless system has a sump 5 times the tank volume filled with macroalgae and mangroves. Without the skimmer, coralline won't even have a change to grow before getting overrun with nuisance algae.

woonming,

A full blown reef tank is not going to be cheap. I suppose most will agree with me unless they own lear jets and bentleys. You'll realise that you'll save more by getting the best equipment and doing it right first time instead of constantly upgrading.

[Chris]

Woonming,

Why don't you try the Prizm skimmer, only about $200. Also, don't safe on lights if you are planning a reef tank.

[clowntrigger]

Hi woonming,

you can buy the rulwal(i think) from italy. Also using needle wheel. Definately suits yr budget & have seen it in action. Comparable to a H&S. Bubble form is as fine as H&S. Need some tuning but once set will work as gd as a H&S. as i told u before, skimmer is not a must have in order to have a successful setup.

You can go skimless first as cycling period, u no need any skimmer. Purely let the system stablise by itself. U can use fan instead of chiller first. Try to source for 2nd hand chiller as it is a lot cheaper. Just get the sand & LR to seed everything. Wait till you got the money for other equipment, just let yr tank cycle & the tiny organisms & inverts to grow. With this alone, its already very interesting to keep u occupy.

U can also take this chance to let the coralline grow on yr rocks by dosing more calcium & raise the dkH.

Just take this as a chance for yr tank to lay a stronger foundation against those unwanted algaes.

Wei

Please do not get the ruwal brand skimmer, it is useless, it i nothing compare to the H&S skimmer. It is not using the needle wheel, it is running by Rio pump and the propeller is a 6 or 8 blade one. The amount of bubbles produce cannot compare to H&S. Further more, the water level need to be constant in the sump to enable proper functioning of the skimmer. Why I know it, cos I have a Ruwal in my 3ft tank.....

[Wei]

Hi AT,

i would disagree that skimmer is a must have for a successful setup. Of course, if Woonming is to dump everything at 1 go into his tank, don't give enough time for his filtration to cycle & mature, overfeed or overstocking, i dun see why he cannot succeed.

As I have also mention to him to stay skimless while his tank is cycling & sandbed establishing itself, why is there a problem? THeres no fish in tank, min bioload. Of course, if one is not discipline enough will lead to his tank downfall in matter of weeks or couple of months. he can save up some money during this period of 2-3 mths for a decent skimmer.

Ard 1997-8 when my friends & i were introduced to NNR & DSB, we do not use a skimmer. Our tank had been doing well & thats when we start propagating stuff. later got skimmers like orca. Personally, i find it hardly skim, so having that PS is as gd as not using. Of course, when i overload the tank(from 5 to 7 fishes in a 2.5ft which is already fully stock with corals), i order a remora. The pt is, if u know what u are doing, with or w/o skimmer is ok. If one can maintain a small vol tank that is fully stock w/o skimmer, i dun see why its not possible for others.

Even for current users using an undersize skimmer(Orca) for their tank, does that mean its not going to be success?

Wei

[PLataX]

erm...no offense to any1 but i feel AT is right and wise to say that he shld wait 4 all the high end or rather reputed to be kickass equip be bot first b4 starting...upgradin later will only waste initial cost.....woonming, u shld also consider a chiller and a plenum sys (put in the sump).....DIY yer stuff is also a way to go....pls dun be afraid of this Xpensive hobby....if u have of 4ft tank u WILL one to do it right the first time ...if u fail and want to strip tank...u will cry ....btw H&S rules while orca air pump driven S**ks!...ive tried it and its currently gathering dust and dustmites 4 like 8 yrs oredi...any one wan can find me...FREE of Charge!!!!!!!!!

[X_Japan]

I agree with Wei.

Well said.

[pospeh]

I think we are all on the same page with regard to skimming.

If you are an advanced aquarist, and know what the heck you are doing, skimmers are not a necessity for a successful setup.

There are many ways to reach the same end, just as there are many ways to kill a horse.

But for a beginner, who is almost certain to early stock, overstock, overfeed, and generally make all the mistakes that can be made, a skimmer will solve a heck of a lot of problems.

[bawater]

i agree with wei, the tank can go skimmerless but at a sacrifice of very low bioloads.Even if the tank has established.

A tank within 1yr old will get hit by algae, this i'm very sure cause the tank is empty so u rush to fill it up,then there are impluse buys- trying all sorts of liquid foods & the tendency to overstock(this happens to the best of us).

DSB,NNR methods work but only when they established themselves & can support a certain ceilling of bioload. How long it takes to establish all depends on what fauna u introduce & can take a couple of months. Do u think u can watch a 4ft with 1 fish for a year? i can't. so i would skim a new tank.

u won't need a $1000 skimmer,or a gold plated skimmer or a self cleaning skimmer that comes with a maid that also tops up water(i wish ) but u need a skimmer that works no frills & within budget(if u have $150,then go within the range & get a skimmer that actually skims or ppl give good feedback on). Maybe after a yr or 2 when u are used to the tank & can tell somethin is wrong just by looking at it & how to solve the problems that arise, u can stop skimming & watch the results. if it goes the wrong way then u know why & can rectify the problem(e.g lower bioload/lessen feeding/change foods).

There's no point is sayin"i stopped skimming 3 mths ago & now i have a cyano or hair algae bloom, what to do- why it happened? u guys said it was ok". After all it is your tank & your decision on what u want to spend more on. There's still other things like lights,pumps,circulation devices,LR,sand,fans,chillers,additives,foods,chillers & reactors. And we never even counted Live stock. Slowly but surely it will come together & u will have what u want.

BTW-3-4" DSB for a 4x2x2 is 80kg worth of your choice of substrate(according to the calc in RC)

the finer the substrate, the thinner the oxygen layer in the top layer. But also the finer the substrate the easier it is to compact over time causing dead spots(& algae blooms). Either lay your rockwork first or use some sort of support for the rocks.

your research into all these & patience will only pay off in 6mths or so, only then will u know u started on the right track or not.

garf is a very good site for info,they also have a bulletproof calc(although old already):

http://www.garf.org/

peace

Brandon

[Wei]

Hi clowntrigger,

you should get an auto-topup to maintain yr sump water level. It is very easy to make.

Hi Platax,

i agree with you in getting those gd equipments. No upgrade, save money. Thats why i recommend him to save up first while his tank cycle. get a cheap sub like fan first to lower his temp. go w/o a skimmer while his tank is cycling. Invest on a eheim for circulation. I believe he can save up enough for a skimmer by then. my orcra in my storeroom collecting dust.

Hi pospeh,

no need to be an advanced aquarist to go skimless & have a successful setup. This hobby has neverending things we have yet to learn. No matter how advanced one can claim to be, they only know a tiny little fraction of this hobby & reef. OH MIGHTY REEF!

One would need constant upgrading of their knowledge. A person with 10yrs of experience but do not update himself(knowledge) is no diff from a newbie. or should i say, newbie might even do better.

Yes, u need to know what the heck u doing of course. BUt with this much advise & info to read, its very hard for one not to know whats right or wrong. For an experience aquarist who know but still commit the mistake, its just a sad case that he still lack some pts to be a good aquarist.

Lastly, I do not recommend him to go skimless throughout but to save up enough for a good PS first. Besides, if one can afford a good skimmer, better. The pt is skimmer is not the key that will determine the success of the reef.

Hi bawater,

Totally Agreed!! Its like karma within the tank. u pay for yr action!

Wei

[bawater]

ya man, two words sum it up

bad karma

[Achilles Tang]

Wei,

I only agree with you on not having a skimmer during the cycling period and while having very little/no livestock as he waits till a good PS comes in.

The followup question would be how long can he hold out?

I am sure you have heard of the "new tank syndrome" where a new tank will undergo a nuisance algae bloom after the cycling is over? Or during the duration before the sandbed matures closer to the 1 year mark?

Why let the excess nitrate and phosphates from the stuff on curing liverock fuel this? I say get rid of it asap.... I rather want coralline algae growing on it then 'hairy stuff'.

[lona]

Hahaha..bawater..that sounds familiar..

bad karma

[Achilles Tang]

Wow... i left my pc while typing halfway for breakfast.... and resume typing out my reply... and there were a few replies already!

Is everyone on holiday already?

Anyway, I agree that there are many methods to reefkeeping.

But we are helping out a newbie here... and the importance, function and safety net of a PS cannot be underated here.

So woonming, you decide for yr yourself.

1. Go skimmerless and keep a very very low bioload. Frequent water changes. No mistakes to be made.

2. Buy a medium range PS at least and keep within the limitations ie. med bioload, reasonable feedings, less. frequent water changes. Upgrade to the best PS you can afford later.

3. Buy a good PS now and enjoy the wider margin of being able to keep a heavy bioload, heavy feedings, possibly lesser water changes. Your tank will be more forgiving of mistakes made and recover faster.

[Wei]

Hi AT,

by just letting the rocks cycle by itself & maybe add a piece of dead prawn is enough. Let the "new tank syndrome" occur while u have no precious corals & fishes inside. Till the final stage, if u dose enough CA, coralline will take over. Bingo!

the main idea of cycling is to let the bacteria establish itself. but removing the excess nutrient, how do u expect the bacteria to establish itself fully? U will only lengthen the cycling process.

Wei

[Achilles Tang]

Hi Wei!

hmmm.... what do you mean by not recommending removing 'excess nutrients'?

As long as you have enough rotting material to produce ammonia... you are already starting the cycle.

Some people make the mistake of 'over polluting' their tank by having too much rotting material/excess nutrients right at the beginning and nearly bringing their tank to the edge of disaster. I think Ernie experienced this.

When this happens, a partial water change to remove excess nutrients is required or he risks killing more micro-life and bristleworms on his LR. That would be silly if we pay good $$ to get LR in the first place or he could save money by just getting DR.

So once the nitrogen cycle kicks off and is completed... the issue of excessive nutrients in the tank is still unaddressed. What do we do with it?

Do you leave it in there to 'prolong' the cycling process ie. more nutrients > more ammonia > more NO2 more N03 > more bacteria needed to process. Chances are... nuisance algae will take over from here.... and you get your diatom, cynano, hair algae BLOOMS!

Once you test that your N02 and N03 has dropped to very low levels, it doesn't mean that other DO is rendered harmless...

That is where a PS will come in and clean up excess nutrients out of the water... or you can start partial water changes (for those without skimmers).

Once you start stocking, and nuisance algae and bacteria are still feeding off excess nutrients... mmmmm...