Roidan's Quattro Skimmer

[roidan]

oh...a fellow reefer told me after seeing this pic, now he knows how to stop the backflow when the pump fails....

i was quite surprised as i thought this is common knowledge that this is done in many designs to prevent backflow

very basic i thought, no nuclear physics or fluid dynamics involved

ok..my mistake..maybe some common knowledge is still not very common

anyway, the new trend in skimming will be katting, i will be katting soon...

so anyone going to kat with me?

er..sorry...maybe not common knowledge yet..but dun worry, just a matter of time when katting catches on

[roidan]

Anyway, i would like to suggest pressure rated pump users to use threaded ended versions for their pumps, especially the higher powered ones....the hose ended ones are less secured in comparison

it is easy to overcome a hose ended barb secured by a hose clip. It is a timebomb. Once the hose comes off, good luck. More so when the ribs of the hose barb are not pronounced.

Go for threaded ends. More secure.

Below is the hose end barb version..i probably have to glue dead unions to it before using.

[roidan]

use threaded ones where possible like these

[untouchables]

roidan, got 2 questions...

1. ur beckett pipes from top to bottom, there is no support for it? seems a little tall to be without proper support except for the 2 connection to the tower at base, esp when u like 2 beckett inlet together, so there is a possibility of extra stress.

2. the backflow... is it prevented by the high outlet which u circled? i was told that doing this will cause overflow of the skimmer at the cup. not sure why but possibly it is becos input is too powerful.

superb skimmer! hope u can put it into prod asap cos lots of us are drooling for kopi!

[RockyBoy]

I think the water in your skimmer can fill up my 2.5ft tank ...

[roidan]

yo untouchables....

there are supports but not mounted yet..that's why i say there are still adjustments to be done and that is why it is not deployed at my place yet. The test firing was just to see the effects of the mx100s, the quad becketts and other little gadgets shown and not shown in the pictures.

the backflow....ahhh..that's a good point you raised...that is why it is useless to copy without thinking...you are right about the overflow at the cup because even if you ask some manufacturers...they recommend only doing it 1/2 the height of the skimmer if one wants to prevent backflow....to just see the picture and adapt wholesale is just seeing the tip of the iceberg. In fact if you make it so high to prevent backflow, usually you will have lots of problems in adjusting the skimmer also.

But the guru had a way to overcome this while maintaining the high point...but like i said, there are still adjustments to be made. The test firing was to convince ourselves that the months in planning and designing was worth it with the results we see in the chamber

there wun be any mass production of this skimmer or smaller units bro, sorry to disappoint you

because firstly the guru himself does not have time or energy left to do anymore such units or smaller ones for the mass market. and secondly i myself will not be undertaking this task.

Why?

Because i respect the intellectual rights of the guru and his designs and to use what i learn from him and turn it into a money making vehicle is something that goes against my principles even though there are probably no patents or legal rights from ripping off designs here and there.

I can rip off designs easily if i want to but i cannot rip off my conscience and make money out of other people's efforts and research.

Unlike some who use DIY as a prequel to their possible background sales and advertisement, I am just showcasing a DIY end product here to show what local DIY talents can do and how good they are

Rockyboy:

yeah...i was thinking i probably rear a few fishes in the chamber..but then again..they probably die from hyperventilating and what's the point if i cannot see where they are amongst all the bubbles?

[typrobin]

I think the water in your skimmer can fill up my 2.5ft tank ...

i think can fill up more than that...

look at the size of the bloody thing!!!

hahahahah

[AlfaRomeo]

Roidan, no offense to both you and the master but if there are revolutionary ideas involved in making the skimmer and it will lead to a better product and effectiveness in skimming overall, wouldnt it be better to publisize it so that we all can gain from the ideas and implementations?

Its not fair that ideas are copied and blatantly reproduced by the scumbags around with a view to earn $$ as a primary objective but IMHO it will be better for the general public if everybody takes an openminded approach to the hobby, i think..

I am only suggesting this since the Master himself will not capitalise on his ingenuity for the general public and will soon go into retirement. Why dunt u and him impart his knowledge to reputable DIYers who will not slaughter us purely for $$ and help improve the level of equipment available to the general public?

With a reputable DIYer who is reproducing his ideas at a relatively cheaper price point when compared to the scumbags around, i am sure the scumbags will be effectively priced out of the market since they have inferior products selling at higher price points?

This is just my honest opinions

[typrobin]

Roidan, no offense to both you and the master but if there are revolutionary ideas involved in making the skimmer and it will lead to a better product and effectiveness in skimming overall, wouldnt it be better to publisize it so that we all can gain from the ideas and implementations?

Its not fair that ideas are copied and blatantly reproduced by the scumbags around with a view to earn $$ as a primary objective but IMHO it will be better for the general public if everybody takes an openminded approach to the hobby, i think..

I am only suggesting this since the Master himself will not capitalise on his ingenuity for the general public and will soon go into retirement. Why dunt u and him impart his knowledge to reputable DIYers who will not slaughter us purely for $$ and help improve the level of equipment available to the general public?

With a reputable DIYer who is reproducing his ideas at a relatively cheaper price point when compared to the scumbags around, i am sure the scumbags will be effectively priced out of the market since they have inferior products selling at higher price points?

This is just my honest opinions

but the point being, how will the master gain from releasing the idea?? nothing....

i'm not saying that the master is money-minded or want fame, just that he really has nothing to gain from releasing them. ..only those pple who sell them will gain...

[dandelion76]

but the point being, how will the master gain from releasing the idea?? nothing....

i'm not saying that the master is money-minded or want fame, just that he really has nothing to gain from releasing them. ..only those pple who sell them will gain...

OMG... I am speachless Can't imargine a skimmer that is even taller than me (I am 1.84 m tall )

In protecting the Master's Interlectual Property, what about licensing the design/fabrication rights to other DIY gurus here (and the Master get certain percentage of $$ with each skimmer sold)? After all this is how most IPs are protected for the interest of their inventors.

Just my 2 cents. Sorry for a little

[roidan]

that's why there is a disparity between 2 groups of DIYers.

those who DIY for the pure love of it. And even if they DIY for others (i.e. more than one piece), they charge only cost. (cost could be transport...manhours...cost of prototypes which have to be absorbed by final saleable products...or maybe only just cost of raw materials themselves.)

the other group DIY for the money that can be earned from it. Or being politically correct they say they just cover abit here and there but definitely those who know how much the raw materials will know how much they are earning even taking into account other factors like i mentioned above.

alfa you are right, ideologically. to share infomation freely is definitely beneficial for everyone. Just like nuclear knowledge or atomic science can benefit everyone but if the information goes into the wrong hands, the repercussions are there.

which is why i mention that nowadays those who possess a whole wealth of knowledge are reluctant to share publicly what they know and only choose to spread the knowledge through trusted channels. They never know if their knowledge gained from their pure innocent love and interest for DIY gets tainted along the way and repackaged into commercialised vehicles.

Well, some are into the love of the art of DIY itself. The others are into the love of money that DIY can bring as they fit just snugly into the gap between cheap and lousy products and expensive but good products.

So for those who want to make money out of DIY and yet want information to be spoonfed. Please wake up and do your own research. For those who are in it for the pure love of the DIY art.

Persevere.

Morpheus will lead you out of the Matrix

[roidan]

dandelion76:

wow u are tall...you just need a short stool to see eye to eye with my skimmer...hehe

well, it is easier said than done. We dun have the critical mass to support the financial viability of a patent or license unlike the US DIYers who end up selling globally what they can produce.

Unless one day all the DIYers in the local DIY scene make a collaborative effort to launch an internationally marketable product. Then patents or license will be viable.

But then again, such collaboration usually ends on a sour note. I have seen too many non-reef collaborations going to failure. Friends from sec to varsity days falling apart after joint ventures.

It is pretty sad when you see how money changes years of relationship.

[ZeRoC00l]

but the point being, how will the master gain from releasing the idea?? nothing....

i'm not saying that the master is money-minded or want fame, just that he really has nothing to gain from releasing them. ..only those pple who sell them will gain...

I don't think the idea here is abt who gain what or lose out.

It's the idea of sharing that makes reefing cheaper. And not taking advantage of it

those who DIY for the pure love of it. And even if they DIY for others (i.e. more than one piece), they charge only cost. (cost could be transport...manhours...cost of prototypes which have to be absorbed by final saleable products...or maybe only just cost of raw materials themselves.)

the other group DIY for the money that can be earned from it.

As roidan mentioned, 2 groups of ppl, 2 very different ideas.

Sounds like anti-piracy talk now

[untouchables]

but the point being, how will the master gain from releasing the idea?? nothing....

i'm not saying that the master is money-minded or want fame, just that he really has nothing to gain from releasing them. ..only those pple who sell them will gain...

if the person who discovered that by restricting air intake for beckett will result in smaller finer bubbles kept it quiet, we wont be seeeing so good beckett skimmers.

i am not saying the secrets should be kept but if the designer has no commercial intent for it, then why not share it out? if there is, then by all means keep it confidential but dun cry foul if someone copies it becos it was not patented. hey this is the real world.

nothing against the designer, juz my 2 cents worth.

roidan, thanks for the clarifications. im just putting the questions to clear my own understanding of beckett skimmers.

[roidan]

But in any case, make no mistakes.

Even brands like AquaC or Barr Aquatics are in fact have their foundations in DIY.

In fact you can say that most skimmers are DIYed, it is just a matter of how large the operation is.

Most local DIYers are just one-man operations or whereas the skimmer companies employ workers to fabricate the skimmers.

So how much each maker want to price their skimmers is really up to them and they have the absolute right to. Especially when some conduct intensive research in designing their skimmers or other equipment.

Just like the local scene. Everyone can price their skimmers the way they want. Ultimately it is we end users to choose to make or break them. Some sell at the bare cost of materials and they dun even take misc expenses into account as they consider it part and parcel of their interest in DIY.

Some find it happy to have a chance to help their friends to DIY. So even they have to fork out their own transport costs or time, they are willing to do it.

Well, there is no absolute right or wrong in many issues. If everyone is so sanguine. Then the world probably would not spin on its axis

[roidan]

Sounds like anti-piracy talk now 

hahaha...seems that way isn't it.

but well, to duplicate something for self experimentation or use is usually not a problem, even legally.

But to duplicate something for mass resale. That is another ball game altogether

And you are right about

" It's the idea of sharing that makes reefing cheaper. And not taking advantage of it "

If the knowledge was put to good use and makes products much cheaper and close to true DIY prices. I am sure the gurus will be willing to share. But in the face of commercialism, they do not want to be unwilling accomplices of the final product which is definitely not cheap if u compare the prices to DIY scale.

[roidan]

if the person who discovered that by restricting air intake for beckett will result in smaller finer bubbles kept it quiet, we wont be seeeing so good beckett skimmers.

i am not saying the secrets should be kept but if the designer has no commercial intent for it, then why not share it out?  if there is, then by all means keep it confidential but dun cry foul if someone copies it becos it was not patented.  hey this is the real world.

nothing against the designer, juz my 2 cents worth.

roidan, thanks for the clarifications.  im just putting the questions to clear my own understanding of beckett skimmers.

you are right...there will not be any nuclear reactors if the early nuclear physicists kept quiet about the possibilities of nuclear energy.

people who study nuclear physics are probably not in the love of the money that this discipline can bring but rather to pursue their interests in this particular discipline out of thousands and thousands of higher disciplines out there. But you cannot deny the fact that although they do not harbour commercial intent over their nuclear knowledge, they are afraid of the information falling into wrong hands right?

yes, by all means keep it confidential if some stuff are more sensitive than others.

Just like if the information falls to some unscrupulous commercial entities, what is cheap may end up being resold as expensive.

well, it's a money-driven world out there. No one is to blame. And no one should blame those who choose to and able to protect themselves and their knowledge

[roidan]

Anyway if i run 1 mx100

it is

0.24kw x 24 x $0.16 x 30days = $27.648 (240W assumption)

or

0.30kw x 24 x $0.16 x 30days = $34.56 (300W assumption)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

running 2 mx100s would be

$27.648 x 2 = $55.296

or

$34.56 x 2 = $69.12

[typrobin]

Anyway if i run 1 mx100

it is

0.24kw x 24 x $0.16 x 30days = $27.648 (240W assumption)

or

0.30kw x 24 x $0.16 x 30days = $34.56 (300W assumption)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

running 2 mx100s would be

$27.648 x 2 = $55.296

or

$34.56 x 2 = $69.12

fwah...$30/mth?? my mom will make me pay the electricity bills for sure...

[roidan]

no choice lah....

that's why i say once go into beckett school...cannot regret one...if regret better switch school.

It is like going to a single-###### school and then regret it. Go ahead to change to co-ed school lor..

Life is full of choices. No one force us to enter the beckett school

I left spray injection/needlewheel school to join the beckett school.

[weileong]

fwah...$30/mth?? my mom will make me pay the electricity bills for sure...

Bro, no one asked you to run MX100 ma.

You can still use MX55 only 130W which works out to be $14.9/month.

[roidan]

yeah.....

can use a wide range of pumps. But for becket it is simple...the more powerful the pump the better the perfomance

initially as you push water through one beckett injector, the higher the pressure from the pump, the performance increases at an increasing rate....and as you increase more and more (changing to bigger and higher pressure pumps)...there will be a point where the performance increases at a decreasing rate....that is where u probably be better off splitting off the pump power for another injector

[typrobin]

Bro, no one asked you to run MX100 ma.

You can still use MX55 only 130W which works out to be $14.9/month.

think i will change to become a beckett user soon...

shall try to persuade my mom 1st...hehehehe....

but still..it will be a miniature one...

[roidan]

http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.php?...pic=23154&st=30

"Use to run this beckett on Resun MD55.

No regret changing to MX70.

Bubble produced are at least double." Sugi's words.

which is rather true from what i observed.

say the md55 (whether resun or iwaki) is about 1000gph and mx70 is about 1500gph...

take for eg. md55 through a beckett injector produces 1000K bubbles....by proportion the mx70 should produce 1500K bubbles right? but no, it produces much more than that.

In other words, for every increase in pressure flow across the injector, there is a higher than proportional increase in bubbles produced.

[dandelion76]

dandelion76:

wow u are tall...you just need a short stool to see eye to eye with my skimmer...hehe

well, it is easier said than done. We dun have the critical mass to support the financial viability of a patent or license unlike the US DIYers who end up selling globally what they can produce.

Unless one day all the DIYers in the local DIY scene make a collaborative effort to launch an internationally marketable product. Then patents or license will be viable.

But then again, such collaboration usually ends on a sour note. I have seen too many non-reef collaborations going to failure. Friends from sec to varsity days falling apart after joint ventures.

It is pretty sad when you see how money changes years of relationship.

Hi Roidan,

Oh really.. must come over to your place and take a look at the skimmer someday, will bring along a stool

I agree with what you said. Well there's no ideal solution to IP as only the rich and richers could affort licensing or maintaining a patent (and to sue whoever infringing them ). It's sad to many of us here when such masterpieces are not available in the market due to low demand and IP problem.