How do you import corals?

[AlfaRomeo]

Dunt want to put a damper on your spirit but I think as a secondary school, its not really 'appropriate' as my personal opinion is that it should be carried out by a University which have lots of resources,researches and facility.

Didnt know there is such a thing as Masters in Aquaculture. way cool!

[bonjour2]

My personal opinion is tat a Secondary school is unsuitable to carry out such advanced research , more suited to University level with necessary equipments and level of research sponsorship and time devotion to specialization in this field.

Everyone of us went through the secondary schl days, to JCs and polys... and it is very clear tat the pace which students have to cope with the syllabus is demanding,let alone time to commit into such a advanced and time consuming project. Unless yr sec sch is in conjunction with MOE , offers a cse in Marine Biology or Equivilent tat gears student towards a future cse in U or Poly , then i wld say it sounds logical and feasible to start tis project.

Juz my thought.

[decentkid]

hey bro.....i not trying to be a wet blanket....but..IMHO.. i really somehow agree with the others, in a sec school, the school doesnt really have enough fund to maintain such a research on a long run. A university will be capable of sure research as they will have the funds, time, space and expertise in such an area, however for a secondary school, you guys are still learning very general stuff...i also dont think that u guys will have capabilities and caliber to do such research....like what u said, produce more hardier corals and propagate more of such a strain, by doing so, u guys will be playing around with genes which means genetic engineering. already in JC, i am learning genetic engineering very generally, and i doubt a secondary school will teach u guys to such a detail, look at other institutes, they will always be using high tech equipments which i also doubt the school is able to provide.

[iewnehz]

such a huge tank?!

calculate the electrical bill and your principal will get freaked out!

[terryansimon]

I always thought you were in a poly. or some other tertiary institute. hmm. (=

[marinecraz]

I have read through the replies by fellow reefers and I would like to add my comments. I understand your concerns but why doubt before BH even started.

I believed BH's teachers would be in a better position to decide if they have enough fund to support the set up. I think there is no issue here. The next thing that trouble me is, why can't such research be carried out at the secondary school level? This is a kind of introductory stage. Time has changed. Teenagers now are more sophisticated than our time. In this case, he is using his resources in something constructive.

Why do you think BH posted this? he is appealing for assistant from you reefers.

Let's stop the cold blanket and start giving substantial comments like those of damien and giantbicycle.

BH give your best and show us what you are worth.

[Achilles Tang]

marinecraz,

I have read through the replies by fellow reefers and I would like to add my comments. I understand your concerns but why doubt before BH even started. 

I am hoping that BH can clear my doubts. If he is asking for help, we must know exactly how, why, when and what the help is required for, the goals & objectives, the motives, the timeframe etc.

I believed BH's teachers would be in a better position to decide if they have enough fund to support the set up. I think there is no issue here.

Having the funds is one thing and using it properly is another. Misguided use of public funds should be everybody’s concern as we are the taxpayers. Not every teacher is schooled in the marine sciences and not every teacher is a marine hobbyist to understand the difficulties in supporting a project that has a very long-term process and difficult goal.

The next thing that trouble me is, why can't such research be carried out at the secondary school level? This is a kind of introductory stage. Time has changed.

Precisely what many of us are trying to find out. If the facilities, resources & expertise of dedicated marine faculties of universities around the world can be found in local secondary schools to facilitate deep-level research into gene manipulation of corals, its time to send these marine biologists to Dunman secondary school instead!

Teenagers now are more sophisticated than our time.

Undoubtedly. My dad could only afford me lego sets at the same age when today’s kids have playstations.

In this case, he is using his resources in something constructive.

Well, being constructive and being innovative are too different animals. Measuring results is another aspect too. So is the motive.

Why do you think BH posted this? he is appealing for assistant from you reefers.

Precisely. I am sure help will be extremely forthcoming from the Reef Club once he can convince us why we should give him our frags and have him ‘lead’ his secondary school funds into buying exotic corals only so that he can do research and propagation into saving the coral reefs by growing corals fast enough to repopulate the reefs with exotic corals.

Let's stop the cold blanket and start giving substantial comments like those of damien and giantbicycle.

To be realistic, many of us are much older & wiser than BH. Many of us have been to higher schools of learning. Many of us know how things work and the level of effort it takes to achieve something. Nothing wrong with Damien or Giantbicycle giving links to projects done by college students but I am sure we can give far more ‘substantial’ input than this.

BH give your best and show us what you are worth. 

Anything in this world is possible. Almost.

[piglet]

Actually funding is not an issue as the school will pay for everything.

And because of this, I'm willing to purchase specimens costing $200-300

And the frags are going to my school's life sciences facility and to all conservation projects. Even those frags I've sold, the money goes back to the prop unit

And I'll most probably attend the frag swopping sessions overseas with my frags

Wow !!!! Your school rich..... i must call my moe friend to ask them to fund my tank too. buy me >some RD !!

[XPeriment 626]

Unfortunately, I am a civil servant myself.

Fortunately, it means I get to see first hand how taxpayer money is wasted. And I mean wasted.

Just because a school approves a project does not mean the school gave proper consideration to the likelihood of any real results emerging from the project. Sure, it looks good to MOE that you have "cheem" sounding projects handled by your students, but that doesn't mean you know what you're doing when you allow money to be spent on buying exotic corals. No doubt the principal and whoever else approved the project doesn't fully understand the implications of what they supposedly agreed to. Even the teacher with the "Masters in Aquaculture"... no offence but if that piece of education were so useful it would be better applied to a marine research institute or lecturing in some university course rather than to waste it as a teacher in a secondary school no doubt conducting O level biology at most.

BH, do recognise that asking people to donate expensive exotic frags for your brood stock so that you can sell it is like asking people to give you their rare breeds of kittens and puppies so that you can breed them yourself and sell. And all in the name of conservation too. There is a reason why there is a market out there to buy and sell frags.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking what a secondary school life sciences facility can do. My good friend won an international young nobel prize award for his thesis on chaos theory when we were in JC1. All I'm saying is that you need to be realistic about what you will probably be able to do. Limited funds (compared to huge marine facilities with wall-to-wall tanks), limited expertise (full-time PhD trained researchers) and limited size (not many students your age will be as well read and committed to the marine hobby as you) will mean your school cannot hope to reproduce the level of work being churned out at big institutes around the world. And there is no running away from the basic courses in related sciences that you must take as a foundation to study the more complex aspects of marine biology.

At the end of the day, I repeat my stand on this. If you say the school is doing it for educational purposes, to get students interested and aware of the basics of coral culturing etc, fine. To say it is about conservation and genetic manipulation of corals I think you ought to re-examine your goals a little more carefully.

Anyway hope your project is a success, it will definitely be an interesting thing for students. Wish I'd had that when I was in school. Don't be surprised, though, if you find nobody rushing over to donate their coral frags to your brood stock. Just isn't realistic.

[lightningstrike]

my 2 cents:

why not juz approach one of the largest if not the largest ornamental fish/equipment supplier in Singapore; Qian Hu, for a similar grant to support ur school's research programme on marine biology. juz like what SIA has contributed to ur school recently for the Rooftop Garden in Dunman Sec Sch.

This way, all will stand to benefit. Qian Hu will stand to gain from its goodwill, Dunman will hv its influx of funds for research. Reefers all around will get to see the progress of ur school's research and will not lament on wasting taxpayers' monies.

3 birds with one stone and everyone's happy.

[marinecraz]

marinecraz,

I am hoping that BH can clear my doubts. If he is asking for help, we must know exactly how, why, when and what the help is required for, the goals & objectives, the motives, the timeframe etc.

Having the funds is one thing and using it properly is another. Misguided use of public funds should be everybody’s concern as we are the taxpayers. Not every teacher is schooled in the marine sciences and not every teacher is a marine hobbyist to understand the difficulties in supporting a project that has a very long-term process and difficult goal.

Precisely what many of us are trying to find out. If the facilities, resources & expertise of dedicated marine faculties of universities around the world can be found in local secondary schools to facilitate deep-level research into gene manipulation of corals, its time to send these marine biologists to Dunman secondary school instead!

Undoubtedly. My dad could only afford me lego sets at the same age when today’s kids have playstations.

Well, being constructive and being innovative are too different animals. Measuring results is another aspect too. So is the motive.

Precisely. I am sure help will be extremely forthcoming from the Reef Club once he can convince us why we should give him our frags and have him ‘lead’ his secondary school funds into buying exotic corals only so that he can do research and propagation into saving the coral reefs by growing corals fast enough to repopulate the reefs with exotic corals.

To be realistic, many of us are much older & wiser than BH. Many of us have been to higher schools of learning. Many of us know how things work and the level of effort it takes to achieve something. Nothing wrong with Damien or Giantbicycle giving links to projects done by college students but I am sure we can give far more ‘substantial’ input than this.

Anything in this world is possible. Almost.

AT

I have read your replies and understand your intentions. My reply was a response to those added later.

Anyway, you have help clear the cloud. Thanks.

[alanseah]

when i read it.. it sound funny to me.. wow.. sec sch nowaday can do research... how thick is the book u guy studying in sec now.. MOE has go to such a stage where sec sch has study such indepth material till they are qualified to do research...

Dont talk about other thing.. u know all the chemical term in coral or not.. the very in cell structure of the coral. How it grow and been form and all these bio term.

If a sec sch student can success achieve this project u talk about. Then I think those study Marine Bio or even those in the PHD can go jump down and die...

[Gripshoppe]

my 2 cents:

why not juz approach one of the largest if not the largest ornamental fish/equipment supplier in Singapore; Qian Hu, for a similar grant to support ur school's research programme on marine biology. juz like what SIA has contributed to ur school recently for the Rooftop Garden in Dunman Sec Sch.

This way, all will stand to benefit. Qian Hu will stand to gain from its goodwill, Dunman will hv its influx of funds for research. Reefers all around will get to see the progress of ur school's research and will not lament on wasting taxpayers' monies.

3 birds with one stone and everyone's happy.

Qian Hu's shares drop to $0.30+ recently...

Dont think its a good time to go ask them for sponsorship...

[lightningstrike]

juz my humble suggestion. it may be a feasible option, no harm trying.

spending a few K's contributing towards marine research wun hurt them. Big infrastructures like SIA & Creative r also one of the most volatile in SES aren't they?

[Achilles Tang]

So even if you can get Temasek Holdings to give $10 mil of funds to the school, the issue becomes moot?

The issue is not about funding as BH has already said that money is not a problem for his school.

I just want to know how advanced is the curriculum for secondary schools these days and be convinced that its within the scope of this 'Propagation for Research & Conservation using rare & exotic corals' project.

[lightningstrike]

in a way, yes...... the issue does becomes more or less moot. from the way i see it, wasting taxpayers' monies is a concern for some reefers here who had expressed their views. my humble suggestion is only addressed to that point made, which i think is a considerable alternative.

[Achilles Tang]

Fair dinkum, mate!

[blueheaven]

my 2 cents:

why not juz approach one of the largest if not the largest ornamental fish/equipment supplier in Singapore; Qian Hu, for a similar grant to support ur school's research programme on marine biology. juz like what SIA has contributed to ur school recently for the Rooftop Garden in Dunman Sec Sch.

This way, all will stand to benefit. Qian Hu will stand to gain from its goodwill, Dunman will hv its influx of funds for research. Reefers all around will get to see the progress of ur school's research and will not lament on wasting taxpayers' monies.

3 birds with one stone and everyone's happy.

So I see you have seen my classmate's project

When I said that the school will pay for it, it doesn't mean that the school pays ALL of it.

I am too looking for sponsors to fund my project too

Some of you said that this project is so difficult, costly, low achieving, but how about possible? Its possible and the realm of possibility lies only in our heads. To me prople who say "impossible" are incompetent and unwilling to break the barrier of his limits.

As we are moving on (as in Dunman Sec), we hope to come up with new ideas and be a role model to other schools as well and we believe that school is not only for students to come and have lessons and take exams and get a cert.

That's why you see us having the Garden Roof (I was in it for some time), Life Sciences Facility, Design Nexus and stuff. We want the students to initiate all these projects.

Yes, I do agree that I can't possibly manage the whole thing myself even with the help of my teacher and I have said many times that I'm roping in research institutions to come share their knowledge or even be on attachment. This is possible.

And to reply AT, all our projects are not within our curriculum. Its based on our interest and passion for a certain activity that we want to show to our fullest potential. Like I said, school is not only for studying and exams but also a venue to develop a student's ###### and interest. That's exactly what secondary school is for, to find out each student's ability.

I also believe that the teachers at my school are not so naive as to agree to any student's request and give out large funds. I have worked on my proposal for almost 3 months before I sent it for pending. These three months I've been working hand in hand with various teachers to work out the whole idea.

And lastly, as I have said, I am only doing my part to conserve the reefs and even though its a small scale compared to the devastation, I still want to try. The reefs have given us so many things, its time we pay it back. And NOW is the time to do it.

[lightningstrike]

Some of you said that this project is so difficult, costly, low achieving, but how about possible? Its possible and the realm of possibility lies only in our heads. To me prople who say "impossible" are incompetent and unwilling to break the barrier of his limits.

BH, if u r replying to my post as u hv quote, i wld suggest u to state ur due clearly. for i did not for once in this post in any way implied that the project u r undertaking (or abt to undertake) is impossible.

[Creetin]

So I see you have seen my classmate's project

When I said that the school will pay for it, it doesn't mean that the school pays ALL of it.

I am too looking for sponsors to fund my project too

Some of you said that this project is so difficult, costly, low achieving, but how about possible? Its possible and the realm of possibility lies only in our heads. To me prople who say "impossible" are incompetent and unwilling to break the barrier of his limits.

As we are moving on (as in Dunman Sec), we hope to come up with new ideas and be a role model to other schools as well and we believe that school is not only for students to come and have lessons and take exams and get a cert.

That's why you see us having the Garden Roof (I was in it for some time), Life Sciences Facility, Design Nexus and stuff. We want the students to initiate all these projects.

Yes, I do agree that I can't possibly manage the whole thing myself even with the help of my teacher and I have said many times that I'm roping in research institutions to come share their knowledge or even be on attachment. This is possible.

And to reply AT, all our projects are not within our curriculum. Its based on our interest and passion for a certain activity that we want to show to our fullest potential. Like I said, school is not only for studying and exams but also a venue to develop a student's ###### and interest. That's exactly what secondary school is for, to find out each student's ability.

I also believe that the teachers at my school are not so naive as to agree to any student's request and give out large funds. I have worked on my proposal for almost 3 months before I sent it for pending. These three months I've been working hand in hand with various teachers to work out the whole idea.

And lastly, as I have said, I am only doing my part to conserve the reefs and even though its a small scale compared to the devastation, I still want to try. The reefs have given us so many things, its time we pay it back. And NOW is the time to do it.

BH, it is possible of cos. But i think most of us dont see where is this heading to? Conservation of reefs? For interest? Commercial gains? Assuming that these goals are mutually exclusive, they automatically warrant your investment (time and effort and money) unnecessary.

I think people here wan to see that there is a future, a continuity in what you are starting. If lets say, when u head into NS, who is going to take care of the animals in the lab? Or teachers, students who get replaced - whos to assure that there is a plan to continue the project and the animals will be well looked after?

And u say u wan to import corals - dont see how this can lead to conservation of reefs either? cos wouldnt u be indirectly creating the demand?

I think u need to show figures; a commitment from members of the team that is in your school, to convince us of the worth of this project.

[Achilles Tang]

I am sure SRC will be more than happy to support this project IF you can convince us to the viability of your project.

I have said this to you before when u mention this project to me a long time ago but you had yet to provide deep details.

It's the same reason why the public questioned the US government why it was necessary to send a man to the moon and back. It was a very very costly project involving billions of dollars but the benefits are nothing more than to win 'face' back from the Russians for sending a monkey into space first.

You have stated noble goals but you have not really come up with a blueprint, project milestone evaluation and action plan.

Saying that you have worked 3 mths to convince your school to spend this kind of money.... it won't take you more than 3 minutes to post up the project papers here for us to see rather than spending time explaining.

Your school's rooftop garden thingy is not a novel idea but coral propagation certainly is.

It's almost similar to wanting to find, import and breed only the most beautiful birds of paradise to see if you can call off their endangered status in future with the main goals to breed only the most desired colours by 'genetic manipulation' with no concrete plans how to release healthy adult specimens back into the wild without the help of avian scientists, researchers, conservation groups, airline and logistic companies, government bodies and the WWF or CITIES and getting the mass media involved to promote this noble goal.

But of course breeding birds is so much easier & faster than creating & maintaining the environment necessary for corals to prosper and grow into the sizeable colonies... but then what happens?

No offence to your school but I see it as nothing more than a disinterested rich parent blindly giving his kid money to buy a supercomputer, a T1 line, 48" LCD screen to 'learn' computer skills with his friend 'supervising' at home without asking for a course curriculum or report card. For all he knows, his kid would be 'hard at work' mugging to be the best Counterstrike player in Singapore. (No offence to rich parents or Counterstrike players).

I will do my utmost to support your plans even if it involves me going to your school to give basic reefkeeping classes to the cherry-picked students each year, having to do tank maintenance and taking leave to transport and dive down into the sea for transplanting corals and perhaps spending weekends diving for sea bed monitoring sessions (if already planned for and funded already in your master plan) IF u can convince me you have got this all covered.

Until then, we await your project blueprints.

[ryz]

Even though almost anything is possible, we must be prudent. We mustn't set impractical targets. What we can achieve is largely limited by our calibre and knowledge.. If you do not even have the rudimentary knowledge and skills about genetic manipulation, how are you supposed to create a new breed of corals that can survive in turbid conditions? I believe that your intentions are good but I also think that it is rather naive, or rather impractical.

Marine Science Laboratories all around the world are still largely unfamiliar with the corals' anatomy and how they react to different environments... The study of the corals' genome science is even a newer science.. Armed with state of the art technology, the marine biologists are still tinkering at the border, trying to understand the coral's genetics. How do u expect a secondary school funded projects to make breakthroughs? Especially when they are not adequately versed in the aspect. Therefore my stand is, like many others, that you cannot achieve much from this project, be it educational wise or conservation wise.

Even Human Genome study is a very new science and though scientists have been at it for few decades, have not discovered anything substantial to manipulate the human genome. Yes they have found out that humans' phenotypes are controlled by their genotype. They have found out that the genotypes are determined by mutiple alelles that control the phenotype. However they have not even found out which gene(s) at which loculi control which traits. How are they supposed to manipulate the human's genes when they don't even have these basic knowledge.. To ascertain these unknowns, they must carry out extensive experimentation on human subjects which is deemed morally wrong.

Hmm.. seemed to have digressed quite a bit there... anyways what I was trying to say was, without the basics, your project will not progress. And now, scientists don't even know enough to say that they understand the basics of coral genetics. How is your school going to make breakthroughs when you are not adequately literate in the field?

Also, I feel that your intentions are not well defined. First you said that you wanted this project to help in the conservation of the reefs (which I already explain why I feel is unrealistic). Then you said you wanna cultivate and sell the corals? huh? You already mentioned about getting exotic expensive corals and cultivate them. hmm.. Anyway if the nexus of your undertaking is to gain experience in the R&D field, I think you should, as AT mentioned, be working with softies and trying to prove hypotheses like in thw website.

All in all I think that your portential undertaking can be of certain educational purpose but if your intentions are to help conserve the reefs and to manipulate the genome of the corals, I don't think it's feasible. It is a scientific axiom that you need basic knowledge to achieve advanced breakthrough. I believe that your project can still be carried out, but it has to be altered. You can set up softies tank and try to experiment with the adpatibility etc of the corals. I still believe that much can be learnt from the experience such as students learning to work as a team and let students have a feel of research on a lower level. However I do not think that any substantial scientific breakthroughs can be made.. The expenditure of the project shouldn't be large as it will only be for the sake of experiencing reseach work.

This is just my personal opinion. Not trying to put you down. Trying to illicit my point of view.

[roidan]

well said AT.

i like this one

It's almost similar to wanting to find, import and breed only the most beautiful birds of paradise to see if you call off their endangered status in future with the main goals to breed only the most desired colours by 'genetic manipulation' with no concrete plans how to release healthy adult specimens back into the wild without the help of avian scientists, researchers, conservation groups, airline and logistic companies, government bodies and the WWF or CITIES and getting the mass media involved to promote this noble goal.

the *proposed* project sounds noble and well intented but we must not forget it does take alot of bodies and funds for it to become a reality, let alone a success.

Projects of such scale may be a problem for even NUS, so i am a little worried and a little skeptical. sorry

but i will be glad to be proved otherwise.

[decentkid]

IMHO...coral propagation is one thing...but propagating corals to develop hardy and nicer variations of corals is another...propagation issomething which you are doing now...but producing hardier and nicer variations is playing with the genes...which is similar to what bro rzy said...frankly...i dont think a sec school has that caliber and knowledge to do this...

and even u go guys can do it...then the marine institues and universities would already have done it...and if so..would the reefs be in danger now?

[Achilles Tang]

A funny thought came to mind....

For all we know, maybe in 50 years time, scientists may be finding out that corals are evolving to be dull-coloured because they have somehow found out that being colourful would mean certain death!

And the few surviving exotic coloured corals are developing toxins against human touch and perhaps will RTN immediately upon the gaze of humans, preferring self-destruction to captivity?