Coral For Sale

[pospeh]

Wow I applaud your commitment.

AT, I have been trying to convice you to do something about encouraging CITES cleared coral for some time now, I think you can do no less with regards to this forum.

[pacificbetta]

1) Golden Tooth

2) Woon Ming

3) Anthony

4) Cedric

5) nicky30092002

6) Joop?

7) Hecter

8) Kais

9) nqh7

10) Bwilly

11) Reefy

12) Ancelot

13) lima16_sg

14) Alvy

15) Ruel

2) Woon Ming <- removed from list since I was informed that the order has been retracted.

Anybody else?

[Achilles Tang]

Woah. *stands up and clap*

Pacificbetta, I guess today you blurred the line between being a hobbyist and a LFS owner with your affirmative action. While I admire your stand, you may wish to be less harsh towards those people who are ignorant of such issues and let them consider the debate that has taken place these few days first?

Pospeh, if you say that I should adopt a similar approach in handling people, it would be more detrimental than the much softer and equally effective method of educating people while banning these kind of sales online (which is happening now).

Things are cloudy enough now, how do you expect me to police the authenticity of corals imported with proper CITIES certification, even the AVA with its stricter procedures and massive manpower these past months, may not have completely stopped all improperly declared livestock!

However, hobbyists who sell a large amount of livestock will be suspicious. And now that SRC has made a stand, this issue has been nipped in the bud. That is probably the most that we can do as a club. It just takes the co-operation of all now that I have made it black and white.

[alvy]

cool!! pac, i like your decisiveness in this and i can respect your action. But an agreement is an agreement and I've comitted in buying those snails and i will not withdraw my orders because you've banned me from your store! But don't get me wrong, I'm not angry or anything but I would like you to understand that there are young people here who know nuts about the stuff you guys have been discussing in this thread and have placed orders on the snails! They might have read this but they probably wouldn't even understand or get involve in the 1st place. So i beg you to withdraw this ban as it would be unfair to new starters and this doesn't reflect well on SRC! I would stand by my principle, i would not visit PR as long as the ban is still on!

cheers!

[pospeh]

AT, if your aim is to educate and make clear the club's stand on such things, then why don't you put up a pinned posting explaining the importance of purchasing only the CITES cleared corals and the club's stand on such matters?

From some of the posting seen here and the attitudes expressed, people here need more "education," as you put it.

To my knowledge, such a official posting from you has never been done.

Your stand, if I interpret it correctly, is that it is out of your hands and the club can't police such things. Also, for you personally it is more important to get the corals in your tank as a first priority to save them from RTN and not worry too much about the source and legality of such livestock.

This "wink and nod" viewpoint (which i dont agree with) may be understandable half a year ago when many LFS do not carry the proper CITES certs, but I don't think the same is true now. There now is a reliable source of sps and clam that carry the proper documentation.

And we should do everything in our power as Singapore's first and only marine aquarium club to encourage more LFS to followi the same example.

[pacificbetta]

banning these kind of sales online (which is happening now).

I still see a link from this forum to DAY's webpage. I still see that a thread helping DAY finance his operations being posted in this forum.

how do you expect me to police the authenticity of corals imported with proper CITIES certification

Key word is *TRY HARDER*. I am not asking you to succeed in it, just try harder. And I do not take "diplomatic neutrality" as an excuse. Look at it this way, I cannot possibly enforce the "unwelcome" FULLY AND COMPLETELY since I do not even know some of those who ordered. But I can state and do my part.

So i beg you to withdraw this ban as it would be unfair to new starters and this doesn't reflect well on SRC! I would stand by my principle, i would not visit PR as long as the ban is still on!

Thank you for your cooperation, alvy. Perhaps a happier ending will be that enough snail buyers persuade someone to stop all future commercial collection until he learn what he is doing?

[Achilles Tang]

PB,

I was intending to remove that post soon. Thanks for the reminder.

PB & Pospeh,

As the way things go, it seems like the pressure is on me to set in stone the tone for the club regarding this issue.

Would one person's statement be followed by all as a means to retain membership in the reef club? Or it's just a black and white document posted so that we 'cover our ######' so to speak?

I think we need to agree as individuals as well rather than just me setting a 'mission statement'.

Do you actually suggest people reading a list of 'do's' and 'dont's', agree and sign off before they are allowed into the club?

It seems like we need more dialogue participation from the floor, rather than us 3 keynote speakers, don't you think?

SPEAK UP EVERYONE!!

[Tanzy]

Not concerning CITES cleared corals

The argument have been laid out and I believe we are locked in a battle of wits. Neither party is going to change their mind or how they act. The words typed out are less so for the sake of convincing the other than it is for the benefits of the spectators. Majority of those who stand by and say nothing have not made up their mind about such things. Those who have will either join in or won't be swayed anyway.

I would suggest editting out the earlier sales portion and keep the latter bit.

On matters pertaining to CITES corals

To prevent getting into an altercation, I would say that we should all obey the law. SRC chould too. At least it's official stand should to prevent getting into trouble with AVA.

If you don't like it, then do something active like championing a major campaign against it. Protest!

[marinebetta]

Would one person's statement be followed by all as a means to retain membership in the reef club? Or it's just a black and white document posted so that we 'cover our ######' so to speak?

I think we need to agree as individuals as well rather than just me setting a 'mission statement'.

Do you actually suggest people reading a list of 'do's' and 'dont's', agree and sign off before they are allowed into the club?

I won't touch on CITES etc since they have been covered quite sufficiently by PB etc. ....and Tanzy has succintly put it very nicely.

Just a comment of the quoted statement:

At this point of time, this forum is just that - an internet forum. Without rules and regulations, code of ethics etc, within a formal legal framework, AT cannot do anything like restricting membership, suspension of membership, revoking membership etc. (unless the forum originally restricts membership by invitation, trade affliliation, profession etc...which is not the case here)

AT's statement would just be that: another statement by a hobbyist (who just happens to own this forum).

If we want to go onto a higher level and be selective/restrictive in what we say/do, then get SRC officially registered under ROS..........

[Achilles Tang]

We are, for lack of a better word, still the first 'official' marine club in Singapore that is currently unregistered.

I don't think we are ready to become 'Official' yet as it involves too much legal stuff, personal and group commitments which at this point of time, from my observation, we are not ready until we really get serious.

So we are still an informal gathering of hobbyists with a pseudo agenda, and can still function as effectively.

Perhaps one day, when the time is right?

[silver2578]

PB has made clear afew issues to me.

From a newbie point of view, I do applaud his efforts and commitment in maintaining legislation concerning CITES cleared corals.

To be honest, I did buy a galaxy coral from DAY, way before this whole episode of suspected Illegal havesting of corals.

I would like to point out that DAY is quite a decent chap, in the my few mins of conversation with him. Thus, lets not be judgemental nor hasty in branding someone as being guilty of scavenging the seas for a quick buck.

I am an avid lover of the Sea and I believe anyone who goes through the troubles of maintaining a marine tank shares the same passion.

I am all for doing my part to conserve marine life, and I hope that my buying minute amounts of CITES cleared corals justifies my selfish needs to bring alittle bit of the sea to my pigeon hole.

Having said such, how then would i know which marine shops upholds the integrity of selling only CITES cleared corals. Its an honest question with no pun intended.

Lastly, I've not been to PR. But now i will. Thats if I'm not being banned

[Ricordia]

I think the issue between CITES and NON-CITIES cleared corals has nothing to

argue about.

In the case whether if you a hobbyist or LFS....

unless the corals you surface to the market for sale are through

propagation means, I believe everyone of us here are directly or indirectly

contributing to the exploitation or destruction of Marine ecosystem.

SAVE A REEF, GROW YOUR OWN

If you think you want to protect mother nature, then follow the motto above.

If not join the World Wildlife Foundation (WWF), if you think you are that noble to

do something for mother nature.

Start propagating your own corals and breeding your fishes. Mother Nature will smile on you.

[Achilles Tang]

I think lets not lose sight of what this issue is all about.

There are two seperate issues here:

1. Commercial sale of corals and livestock, be it by hobbyists or LFS using SRC. This is different from sale of corals through propagation or clearing of livestock from the hobbyist's personal tank.

Conclusion: SRC will not allow commercial postings and that includes commercial sale of corals and other livestock.

This issue is leads to the 2nd point because the source of such coral is rather dubious.

2. Ascertaining the sources of corals being sold. Hence the subject of CITIES controlled imports and how we as individuals and we as a club, should support the sale of such properly-cleared corals and not buy those which are suspicious/definitely not cleared thru proper channels.

This issue is clouded because there is no way we are privvy to the workings of individuals or LFS in whether they ALL their livestock is acquired thru proper channels.

[Cookiemunster]

I won't touch on CITES etc since they have been covered quite sufficiently by PB etc. ....and Tanzy has succintly put it very nicely.

Just a comment of the quoted statement:

At this point of time, this forum is just that - an internet forum. Without rules and regulations, code of ethics etc, within a formal legal framework, AT cannot do anything like restricting membership, suspension of membership, revoking membership etc. (unless the forum originally restricts membership by invitation, trade affliliation, profession etc...which is not the case here)

AT's statement would just be that: another statement by a hobbyist (who just happens to own this forum).

If we want to go onto a higher level and be selective/restrictive in what we say/do, then get SRC officially registered under ROS..........

I dun want to get into the legal or moral aspects of this issue. But to contribute my viewpoints.....

I do not think PB is trying to be a conservationist. He is more concerned about how the corals are obtained and whether the person who tries to sell them is holding them in a proper setup and knows what he is doing.

Personally I would buy corals from CITES or non CITES, I don't really care as this is just a means for many LFS to jack up their prices. Very very few LFS are actually honest about it.

However, I am concerned about how people are selling their corals....ie the proper setup holding area for the sale of the corals. As reefers we can also play a part in conservation by successfully keeping corals and fragging and propagating them. Yes we do need to obtain it from the sea in the first place but we can play a direct part in demanding that we want it to be harvested in the proper way thus ensuring the good health of the corals we buy. We can demand by not buying unless we see the conditions are setup properly, eg, proper skimmer filtration setup with proper lighting etc. Even as a hobbyist, it is not true to say we cannot play our part in protecting the seas. Proper education and introduction of the reef and its inhabitants to people will bring awareness to the beauty of the seas. I really believe most divers and reefers want to protect the coral reefs in the seas once they see the beauty of it. Hence I really do not agree that keeping a marine tank in the house (as long as its setup properly) is detrimental to the environment or harmful to the seas.

The more people who see the beauty, the more the awareness, the more they will feel a need to protect it. And the next time someone goes to a seaside resort for some snorkelling, he will not want to step on that ugly looking multipronged stick thingie because he knows its a kind of acropora and it takes a damned long time and proper environment for it to have grown to this size.

I am more dismayed when I see good corals placed in sloppy holding tanks without proper systems whilst waiting for sales to be completed. And many many LFS which used to be Luo Han shops are now doing this too.

So in my personal stand, it doesn't matter whether its CITES or no CITES but I am more concerned that it is treated as it should be in a proper way and in proper holding areas.

As for how much AT can do, I think he has already done alot by creating a forum to bring about the awareness and education of how to create a good environment for these corals and fishes.

This awareness is important and seeing the marine hobby industry growing, nothing is more important now than to teach and educate reefers on the proper care and setup of a good environment for their corals and fishes.

Just my 2cents.

[pospeh]

Marinebetta, it is simply not true that SRC has no rules and regulations. Or that we have no influence in the public.

During the Nemo craze, several of our members wrote to newspapers and got our story publicized in the papers. AT had a 3-part article in the Straits Times. We also managed to change the policies of several LFS that were providing the wrong information (ie. LFS at Chinatown).

Also, we have rules against commerical posts, pornography, flaming, self-censorship of LFS names, etc.

So I really do not think we can't make a change for the better if I really want to do it. It is just that we are somewhat divided on the issue of CITES-cleared stock.

So in the words of PB, TRY harder to educate and convince people.

Cookie, I applaud your views about providing the right environment for the livestock. But quality of livestock is related to CITES-cleared livestock too.

I see a stong correlation between stores that carry CITES stock versus stores that do not in terms of their investment in the proper holding equipment. CITES cleared stock also tend to be better and arrive in better shape because they are provided by big exporters who have the means to apply for the export license.

If you take the trouble of getting the proper permits, and have already made an investment in getting the licenses, it is a strong incentive to also invest in the proper equipment to keep your stock. A fly-by-night store with no CITES-cleared stock that is out to make a quick buck will not invest in the proper holding equipment. You can then decide for yourself if you would rather buy from a reputable store or get it cheap from a chop shop.

I just hope that the awareness to the Nemo issues also will eventually move to buying CITES-cleared stock also since they are really one in the same--minimizing the harmful effect our hobby has on the marine environment.

[nqh71]

Hi Pacificbetta,

I truly admire and agree to your stand. I am just a hobbyist who took this hobby about 5-6 months ago. Prior to that, it took me about a year to read up about marine life and the behaviour and characteristic of its inhabitnts before embarking on starting a marine tank. But yet, there is still a lot for me to learn and I am still learning more about it.

When I stumble upon this website sometime in March this year, it was a major saviour cause it is the first Sg website on Marine hobbyist. I have gathered a lot of insight about the moral responsible of it.

I guess you had made a strong and bold personal move, by barring those people who intend to buy the snails from Day from your shop (mine included). But I guess for this part, I have to agree with Alvy. I am a man of my words, since I have already promised Day to buy from him. But I guess, I will respect your decision to bar me. But my principle is to honour what I have said or promised.

In my opinion, so that hobbyist like me who is still new in the hobby whom are not sure about the validity of commercial and illegal harvesting from the sea/ocean, we need to control the pasar malam forum. Recommendation: Any post to sell any life stocks and corals need to get approval from moderator. ie the moderator must give the thumbs up before it is posted. One way to do it, is to create a separate froum for selling/buying of livestocks. Anybody who flout this rule will have their priviledges of posting removed.

Hi AT,

I am truly agreeable to SRC objectives. We need to educate new hobbyist like me on the aspect of Marine life and eliminate all the negative aspect that can is against the Conservation of Marine Life.

[changfra]

Wonder what's the "HU HA" about all this... most of the people already know that they are not allow to use this forum for commercial reason... I believed AT will not be able to control anyone who try to do it for commerial unless he hired someone to screen all the post in a development server and when approve post it here in the forum.. well that will cost him a overhead.

I believed if we stick to the rules and there'll not be a problem. There are too many LFS selling it and their prices are extremely high (I would say) compare to the farm. So ...

[reefer guy]

reading through all these 'arguements' it has come to be more of a personal issue than a commercial issue... just put an end to such things...

pb, i can see that you are losing your temper, whether its your principles that's driving you or its just that you are threatened for non-cites selling individuals that become a big competition for your shop, it's too unprofessional to name people and list all those 'unwelcomed' individuals in your shop. you can't simply threaten them just because they are buying from some individuals, they have the right to choose and decide themselves. IMO, reading such would give a negative impression towards you and your shop, not trying to side either of you but just respect each other's opinions and principles.

this forum i believe is a meant to share information and educate everyone in the hobby, not start pinpointing people whom individuals believe are unrighteous.

AT, i think this topic needs to be put to an end, the outcome is getting ugly and its not doing good for everyone, nor the very purpose of this forum..

[Achilles Tang]

Reefer Guy,

Actually, I disagree. All of us, even the ones who are 'banned' by PB, has responded in a mature polite way. I don't see any emotional outburst here. And certainly, no ugly outcomes here.

This is the kind of debate that I like. Not petty squabbling and emotional attacks that some forums usually break down to. Just logical explanations, point of views and personal opinions that are exchanged in a sensible, courteous manner.

Please carry on, people. Let's hear more views.

[reefer guy]

rest my case..... off to other to pics......

[Kojek]

HI Folks

I really think there may be a few areas of concern we might like to address

1)Commercial Postings

2)Cites versus non-Cites

3)The single individual and his thoughts

1) I understand commercial postings of livestock are not encouraged and I respect that. IMO, I also understand that if every one were to communicate and in a more gracious tone without resulting in "Name Calling".

2)IMO if you talk about the birth of the Cites document, the bottom line is that their main objective is to protect the species of Flora and Fauna.They are not trying to protect the species to ensure that there will be sufficient stock to go around in the commercial market for the years to come.

I'm sure you guys will tell me that this is "way off topic" as the discussion is purely about encouraging the purchase of Cites livestock.Now,lets get to the heart of the matter. Cites is intended to protect and control the diminishing species of flora and fauna.Whether we choose to purchase,steal,rob through either means,be it legally or illegally.Now our definiation of "legally" may vary with others,because personally I myself do not check,verify and audit every piece of coral with its scientific name,to ensure that this livestock are "Cites proven", before I make a purchase.Now isn't this the same as buying non Cites livestock ?

I may be the odd one out, but this is my current practise.If you should have a better idea or suggestion on how I can verify and ensure the above,please share with me.

With regards to laws being laws and they are meant to be followed without much thought, I feel sad,because most of us do what we do without much thought and feelings.I am refering to the "Let the Authorities handle it, they know what they are doing, Its their scope of work"."I'm sure some of you will tell me that having some laws are better than having none".

As long as the stock comes in and it is a LFS, "its all clear" .The bug stops here.

If we truely say that we are all out to support the "Cites" then let us all not buy anything that falls under the Cites classification act,once the demand drops,the harvesting will stop.Now thats a cure,and we are doing our part by maintaining whats left of our marine ecosystem.

Then we would all be setting a world class example,and we stand on par with our very words.

I have to share this with you Pacificbetta,it's not very nice to list names and tell them that you are banning them from your shop.(To be honest, I did not know you own a LFS) I'm sure you feel that you have every right because its your shop.Well, its still not very nice as this is a forum,where we are able to express,share and exchange ideas.

Best Regards and I would like to thank the people for airing thier views

KOjek

[reefer guy]

HI Folks

I really think there may be a few areas of concern we might like to address

1)Commercial Postings

2)Cites versus non-Cites

3)The single individual and his thoughts

1) I understand commercial postings of livestock are not encouraged and I respect that. IMO, I also understand that if every one were to communicate and in a more gracious tone without resulting in "Name Calling".

2)IMO if you talk about the birth of the Cites document, the bottom line is that their main objective is to protect the species of Flora and Fauna.They are not trying to protect the species to ensure that there will be sufficient stock to go around in the commercial market for the years to come.

I'm sure you guys will tell me that this is "way off topic" as the discussion is purely about encouraging the purchase of Cites livestock.Now,lets get to the heart of the matter. Cites is intended to protect and control the diminishing species of flora and fauna.Whether we choose to purchase,steal,rob through either means,be it legally or illegally.Now our definiation of "legally" may vary with others,because personally I myself do not check,verify and audit every piece of coral with its scientific name,to ensure that this livestock are "Cites proven", before I make a purchase.Now isn't this the same as buying non Cites livestock ?

I may be the odd one out, but this is my current practise.If you should have a better idea or suggestion on how I can verify and ensure the above,please share with me.

With regards to laws being laws and they are meant to be followed without much thought, I feel sad,because most of us do what we do without much thought and feelings.I am refering to the "Let the Authorities handle it, they know what they are doing, Its their scope of work"."I'm sure some of you will tell me that having some laws are better than having none".

As long as the stock comes in and it is a LFS, "its all clear" .The bug stops here.

If we truely say that we are all out to support the "Cites" then let us all not buy anything that falls under the Cites classification act,once the demand drops,the harvesting will stop.Now thats a cure,and we are doing our part by maintaining whats left of our marine ecosystem.

Then we would all be setting a world class example,and we stand on par with our very words.

I have to share this with you Pacificbetta,it's not very nice to list names and tell them that you are banning them from your shop.(To be honest, I did not know you own a LFS) I'm sure you feel that you have every right because its your shop.Well, its still not very nice as this is a forum,where we are able to express,share and exchange ideas.

Best Regards and I would like to thank the people for airing thier views

KOjek

now that's a crusader!!!! standing for what you believe and not threatened by any means..... whoever feels that day is the only guilty person around here cast the first stone on him..... i should say i am guilty as well, so wont be pointing fingers or naming people.....

[Achilles Tang]

The issue has gone beyond Day (unlucky chap)... it's encompasses anyone who collects/harvests wild livestock for commercial sale. I know that there are a few guys here in SRC who are always offering livestock for sale.

As this leads us to the issue of protecting the environment from uncontrolled unsupervised collection, we are even more encouraged to NOT purchase from them even though it may be a lot cheaper to do so than buy from LFS (which or may not have gotten livestock that are collected within CITIES regulations: which is another issue altogether).

This boils down to personal conviction that it all starts with one person: ME! If each person says NO... I won't participate or encourage 'illegal' trading or trading of livestock which are suspiciously/obviously harvested without permission from the authorities... then where there is zero demand, supply will stop.

The more cynical amongst us will say: What's the big deal, the world is going to end anyway. Global warming will wipe out coral reefs in a decade. The waters around our country is so polluted that the corals will die anyway. They have a better life in my tank.

The heck-care ones will say: I don't give two hoots about coral reef preservations. It's all about the money. I pay the money and I get the goods. The cheaper the better. Free is best. I'm happiest when I get things at a bargain.

The apathetic ones will say: So what if they are illegally obtained? How are we to know? It's so hard to demand proof from collector to wholesaler to middleman to retailer before buying anyway. As long as the LFS brings in in, they should know what they are doing anyway. I am just a consumer.

The righteous ones will say: To play my part in the worldwide conservation movement in protecting the environment and providing sustainable resources, I will support CITIES and its laws and will only support trade with reputable retailers who get their corals from reputable sources who harvest livestock according to conservation guidelines.

The more ultra conservative will say: We shouldn't be in this hobby at all. We are killers & pillagers of the earth. We are hypocrites! Save the earth... give up the hobby!

I think most of us fall somewhere between the ultra right and left wing... the time now is to ask ourselves that question: where do I stand personally and what can I do about this?

[woonming]

2) Woon Ming <- removed from list since I was informed that the order has been retracted.

Anybody else?

Sorry to disappoint u Edwin. As far as the seller is concern he did not recieve my PM with regards to my cancel of snails orders from him.

As way before this issue of wild harvested corals debate bacame into a ban of reefers was impose on PR . I wanted to cancel my order due to another reefer Phang whom was kind enough to PM me and told me he could give me 10 baby snails from his tank ......

But since due to whatever technical error or human error.. No cancel order was sent to him. And my snails had been reserve for me i think i would have to pay for it ..

But i respect and understand your action PB and no worries no hard feeling..

Hope ban could be lifted before u place your ricodeas (opps) for sale . Haha

If not deepblue and ricodea and many others would be happy liao !!!

Ming

[Tanzy]

The more ultra conservative will say: We shouldn't be in this hobby at all. We are killers & pillagers of the earth. We are hypocrites! Save the earth... give up the hobby!

It's ultra conservationist not conservative. Usually these greenies, as I like to call those tree hugging environmentalist hippies/nutcases, are in cahoots with the socialist/commie which are radical left wing. Conservative refers to the right wing.

In reality, it's not difficult to differentiate between CITES listed corals with regards to the reefer. All hard corals, SPS or LPS, are listed in CITES Appendix 2. No softies are listed and hence not regulated by CITES. Ironically, most of the CITES corals imported are SPS which are abundant in nature and grow very fast compared to LPS.