Selling Or Not Selling - Rules? Not Approved?

[Matt06]

Greetings,

I would like to highlight this topic especially to AT.

I guess selling things are really a big headache now as it is really a hot topic for all of us here to discuss.

A way to be sure is to remove this "Sell off/Pasar Malam Shop", as you can see, the name already suggest a marketplace. Yet, we have to concern about selling personal things here and about commercial selling. But the point is, why not we leave all the selling to Classified in some other website, that some of the people might be interested set it up for us?

With the forum "Sell off/Pasar Malam Shop" remove, most of us will not benifit from it, but at least, the forum will be in order. We do not have to worry about "commercial selling" and so on and on... I hope you guys know what I mean.

Let there be more transparancy in the way we handle situation. For example, when I want to sell my equipment, someone who dislike me can just message AT and claim that I am from LFS. Who is gonna verify that and so do I really owe an explain myself while posting my sale in a "Sell off/Pasar Malam Shop"? Think and analyse it.

Decision must be made quickly:

1) To continue "Sell off/Pasar Malam Shop"

2) To remove "Sell off/Pasar Malam Shop"

Cause we can't just accuse someone that they are from LFS or selling it due to "commercial" reason as there is no direct way that we can prove it. Futhermore, the seller do not "owe" this forum an explanation before he post.

[bum]

i think the rules are very clear,

no commercial posts unless you are a sponsor.

its pinned..

just that people do take advantage and post anyway...

by the time admin finds out, they have already had their publicity.

IMO, the pasar malam is a good place for selling and buying

"2nd hand, extra, buy on impulse and then regret, propogated frags...etc" items

the onus is on the buyers here to have the integrity not to entertain these free loaders

if you are really a bona fide reefer/seller, what is there to hide?

like the case of ricordia's thread..

the truth will set you free!

[DOGFish]

Matt06,

I think you got a good point…

[accs]

I fully agree with BUM. just because of some 'black sheep' amongst the reefers here we have to do away with the pasar malam is not wise.

In fact, I have beneffited from the trading of 2nd hand stuff here and made some friends.

[onghm]

IMO, the pasar malam is a good place for selling and buying

"2nd hand, extra, buy on impulse and then regret, propogated frags...etc" items

i second bum.

[Cookiemunster]

Guys I really do not understand why you want to make it so complicated.

The rules are in simple english and its straightforward as what bum has said.

Only sneaky people who try to bend the rules always get found out and exposed in controversy.

Pasir Malam section will never be closed down because the benefits of having it far outweigh the disadvantages or misuse by a very small number of people.

Its very easy to always cry mother cry father and get the moderators or AT himself to do something. But I strongly believe that we are more matured and responsible than this. If the majority of forumers behave maturedly and responsibly as adults in their posts, we can easily outvoice or prevent such issues from happening....ie dun reply and dun buy from such posts.

And the simple thing to do would be to just pm the moderators to take action. Thats what they are here for.....to ease AT's load.

AT is just a fellow hobbyist like all of us. He has his own job and family and own life. He created this forum for the benefit of all reefers to share knowledge and trade or exchange items etc. He alone has no time to keep dealing with such issues and that is why moderators come in.

Lets try to stick to the rules which were already long stated and try to keep things simple. After all this is just a hobby and should be light and fun.

Cheer up guys! Life is hard enough without all these little misadvantures. Lets just be happy and peaceful.

[DOGFish]

Cookiemunster,

Thats a good 1, this people like to "cry mother cry father". hahahahahaha

[Matt06]

I don't think bum got my point.

My point:

How to you define "Commercial"

For example, if I advertise my second hand PL light that I am selling now, someone can just claim that I am of "commercial" nature and inform AT about it, and that AT will then question me. Is what AT's action necessary? This will create unecessary disputes that happened in the last few "hot" topic.

We must understand that some of the things that people do is beyond our control so no matter how much we try to stop, there is always a way. I am suggesting that to be safe, we can have the option of giving up "Sell off/Pasar Malam Shop", which I don't think it is worth it - just like many others.

Topics about LFS info and so on are related to "Commercial" as well and should be considered as advertising, how can we control this? The shop's related agent can just come here and say "Hey, I went to XXXX and found that their stock of ######, XX arrived. Check it out!!!".

I believe I made my point clear enough with examples.

[bum]

OIC

well,

if you have one set of lights...

and if you have many many sets of lights...makes a diff,ya?

guess no one will know unless someone actually wants to buy from you.

then it again boils down to the buyer...

[bawater]

Alvy has covered that point in another post. & bum just covered it again.

Why would anyone buy something at (or relatively near)market price unless its brand new(i too won't be interested unless its near half price). And if its brand new....you don't just happen to keep 10 or 20 sets at home.

AT does not base his decisions on a single pm. If he is unsure he will track it. Most of the time its pretty clear.

This is an issue that happens on all the forums, not only SRC. If you have been on other forums with sponsors you will see the same actions being taken.(most of the time very harsh)making AT seem very polite.

Commercial touters are not allowed free lunches on SRC(maybe somewhere else but not here). As cookiemonster has put it, this is a hobby site and we are not online 24hrs 365 a year to watch every topic- so if you see something fishy just drop a PM. (sure maybe the post is up for a few hours but hardy more than a day).

Topics relating to LFS info has been discussed before.yes It benefits both parties,but mainly members are alerted to the new arrivals or for that something you've been looking for.(is this not helpful?)

If you have bad things to say about a LFS, state your real name,contact number and details so that the LFS knows who to contact (AND NOT SRC). otherwise it will be edited or deleted. Otherwise use *** as you have seen. The industry as a whole is not a polite one so SRC would rather not have any issues with them.

You may state good things about the LFS you are happy with- this will allow new hobbyist to visits shops where they are not lead astray.I think there are enough members to reply or second the vote if a bad LFS starts to praise itself.

No LFS are sponsors. (sponsors have their own thread) . I shall repeat that just one more time. LFS are not sponsors. let's face it, they have no complaints taking your money!

If you have Day's post in mind, he has withdrawn his commercial sale on Sgreefs and already apologised a long long time ago. It was more due to the govberment issues and livestock concerns that was brought up. its all there. The thread dragged on due to the cities statement.....that subject can go forever.

If its to the bulk order mushroom thread- if the price is stated (since there's nothing to hide) you will then be able to base your assumption.

i left a link but moved this to kopitiam.

[Dispar_Anthias]

Agree with BUM

[lokey]

THIS MUST BE KEPT!!!!

My gawd!!!...this is the whole nature of the Internet. It started because of this!

The birth of the Internet was for groups like us to share information, trade, etc etc etc. YOU CANNOT AND SHOULD STOP THIS...

Yes, i completely agree why should WE ALL SUFFER because of some DORKS!

This is also the best way to see what competitors are doing, and weed them out of even flame them.

Besides, if an Ad is Commercial it is very obvious with lists, add, phone numbers, otherwise they can be very subtle BUT if u see it too many times then u know they r comm. Like some people recommend certain LFS and we go down to judge for oursleves. We voice it and let every know the verdict. That's fair....and if it is crap then we will tell you.

[hoppinghippos]

I think the easiest thing to do is to simply have several more mods who are solely in charge of the sell off/pasar malam section, with enuff mods, commercial postings don't stand a chance, plus with bans on the poster, even if he changes nicks and ips, he'll be sian of it after a while cuz his postings won't last more than a few hours, and after each time he'll kena ban, then must change nick and ip and everything just to repost. for all his effort he'll get very little business if any at all, I think most sellers won't bother after a while. of cuz the easiest way to draw the line is on post where its obvious, like the fella post his first few posts only, and all his other posts are also selling, and he has LOTS of stock to sell, etc.

[bwilly]

there's already some clear cut rules.

those who dun follow just get "bum" off.

I dun see any wrong with it.

To just restructure n inconvenience all for some minority?

mai seow..

[pospeh]

I think it is all a matter of common sense.

If you are selling hardware, 99% of the times, used goods should not be a problem. With new stuff, it all depends on the volume. If you are selling several things that are the same (ie., 3 hailea chillers), or if you carry a "full" range of the same products (1/4 hp, 1/2 hp, all can), then it is suspect.

With livestock, it also comes down to volume. An one-off sale of a large number of livestock should be ok, but if you regularly have large volumes of livestock to sell, then chances are, its commercial.

As I said, it is all matter of common sense.

[bwilly]

commercial or not depends on the mind set mah.

not that if the quantity is large or not - plays a part.

as long as u are making a tidy profit is “commercial” liao.

This relates to one item I studied in my accountancy

course. Badges of trade.

There are basically 6 criteria that helps to pinpoint

if the subject matter is trading (in our case for profit)

- The subject matter of the realisation; (eg. fishes which I seen more less prone to trade due to their highly fragile health state, that most ppl do not want to take a risk)

- The length of the period of ownership; (shorter means higher chance of trade)

- The frequency or number of similar transactions by the same person; (self explain)

- Supplementary work on or in connection with the property realised; (is it repackage to make it more attractive?)

- The circumstances that were responsible for the realisation; (overspent, upgrading..etc)

- Motive. (money driven? Or to disposal 2nd hand so can get a new replacement?)

Mod may like to use this badges of trade as a guideline

to what constitute to trading. haha..!

Check here for more in depth explanation of badges of trade refer

to this URL

http://www.taxarticles.co.uk/badges_of_trade.html

* One of the few constructive comments I made.

[pospeh]

There is hope for you yet bwilly.

I am pleasantly surprised by your thoughfulness and intution (not that i ever doubted you in the first place)

[nleong]

bwilly,

I do not agree on the point "....as long as u are making a tidy profit is “commercial” liao"

Does that means reefer who fraq and sell their own corals such as SPS, mushrooms and ricordeas etc cannot make a small profit just to sustain their hobby ?

The point here is whether one is repeatedly selling "used" stuff and not justify the source of it.

[Tanzy]

Commercial sales of GENUINE aquacultured frags (not chop shop kind) are allowed to encourage and promote sustainable reef keeping.

[pospeh]

I also doubt that anyone can make a real profit from selling frags, aquacultured livestorck, unless you are doing it on a factory-size scale.

The expense behind growing them (lights, chiller, setup,supplement, and most importantly, your time, etc) most likely outweighs the dollar value of the sales.

It is really a labor of love, not for profit.

[Achilles Tang]

Well said guys!

Let's not let a few 'black sheep' spoil everything due to them abusing the system.

The rules are pretty clear and straightforward.

There is little need to expound on the definitions of the word 'commercial' already as you guys have put it across pretty clear to reinstate my rule.

I have been very patient with a few hardcore commercial posters like Sunray who still persist in pushing the limits. Gawd knows when I will finally become a nasty guy and ban them from SRC... I hope I won't be forced to do so.

[Tanzy]

I also doubt that anyone can make a real profit from selling frags, aquacultured livestorck, unless you are doing it on a factory-size scale.

The expense behind growing them (lights, chiller, setup,supplement, and most importantly, your time, etc) most likely outweighs the dollar value of the sales.

It is really a labor of love, not for profit.

That is so true!

You hear that Phang! You are MAD!

[reeff]

Can we have a moderator for the pasar malam forum such that all posts will be moderated / screened through before it can be viewed by our members ?

A bit lehcheh and slow in the posts but at least we get to screen through them for "undesirable contents".... How ? What say u guyz?

[bwilly]

bwilly,

I do not agree on the point "....as long as u are making a tidy profit is “commercial” liao"

Does that means reefer who fraq and sell their own corals such as SPS, mushrooms and ricordeas etc cannot make a small profit just to sustain their hobby ?

The point here is whether one is repeatedly selling "used" stuff and not justify the source of it.

I am not against those who frag n sell their own stuffs.

Remember its a perfectly competition market here,

pretty determine by demand n supply, hence the pricing too.

By all means, offer the frag for sales. I myself would like to

fren the guy who sell his own frag at loss or even zero cost.

my point as in theory n mind should be , since the mindset

is to make money n money links to commercial. its just a matter

of small scale or large one.

Remember how our ancestor came about n advancement hence..

From barter trade to now more adv. commercialisation.

Conclusion is that commercial selling with certain exceptions

as stated by AT if I look at it. (eg. Sponsors, own frags..etc)

** I neber question the source of it yet..

** ps I may be buaya, but with a frag of brain.